Under gravel filter and live plants

chasely

Medium Fish
Feb 19, 2005
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#1
Hey guys, this is my first post, treat me kindly.

I just got a 20 gallon tank along w/ everything for my b-day. It came with an under gravel filter.

My question is: will the undergravel filter not work if I have to use live plants because I need to put down soild, etc?

I am going to take trip out to my speciality aquatic store this evening and try to get a hold of everything I need so I can buy some fish sometime next week to put in there.

Thanks a lot.

Chase
 

Dec 25, 2004
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#2
All I will say is this your entire bottom of the tank 2-3 inches thick is a bio media that holds bacteria when using a UGF.

Heres alittle info from a site I found a awhile ago.


The Undergravel Filter.

These days the poor Undergravel Filter is a continuous topic on many tropical fish forums, and there are many "against" its use, and many "for" its use. My personal opinion is not the question here, but I do in fact use the U/G filters in all my main display tanks, and find them to be trouble free, low maintenance, and they always help to keep my water crystal clear and in good condition.

The greatest impact on the fishkeeping hobby (in my estimation) was the All Glass Tank, but prior to this I would say that the U/G filter was the big leap forward in water control. The old undergravel's were just a series of perforated pipes that were attached together by elbows and tees, and buried in the gravel, then later on came the plate type of U/G filter that we see today, that to my knowledge has been around for about forty odd years. The other filter that has change little in all these years is the corner box filter, and the same concept is used today, as nothing can really improve on it.

So what do we believe...? Is the U/G filter a thing of the past.... Is it really so hard to maintain, and does it really rob our plants of food. I have personally run tanks from 18"x12"x12 to 9foot by 2foot by 2foot for years with U/G filters fitted, and have had no problems whatsoever, neither from blockage, or from lack of plant growth.

To me... and this is just "my" view, the undergravel filter will always have a place in the aquarium, but only under certain circumstances, and it does not suit every occasion and setup. For a planted community tank that is sitting in your front room, then it would be ideal, but on the other hand if that tank was filled with large Cichlids that tend to dig, then you wouldn't use one in this situation, nor would you use one if you only has say a couple of big fish in there with few plants.

Again... we have to look at the "balance" within the tank, for with a tank with few fish and plants, the filter would perhaps rob the plants of food, but the same tank fully stocked, with lots of plants and fish would tend to fair much better. In my tanks you can see very little gravel, as most is covered in a lush growth of plant, and my average tank (1.2x.5x.5mtrs) holds around a hundred or more fish... generally ones that are growing on, but are put in display tanks for a change of scenery. The U/G filters are air driven only, and the odd tank or two has the addition of an external box filter.

Filtering your tank water today is a science, and we see ad's for the latest this and that type filter that will suck the hairs off a peach, and turn your water over so many times an hour, that if you blink you will miss it happening... but is it "really" needed. Again... Some instances do demand constant heavy filtration, but (without additives) a filter can only store so much of the good bacteria that is beneficial to your water conditions, and this of course depends on the amount of area that is provided for the bacteria to live in. Some filters only have a few square inches of "collection area" where others have multiple chambers and additions of what are commonly called "noodles" to help colonize the bacteria. In the U/G filter, the "noodles" are the gravel, and just as each noodle is coated with bacteria, so is each particle of gravel, along with just about everything else in the tank that will hold bacteria. Looking at a four foot by eighteen tank, we would have a filtering area of six square feet, but add this to the depth of the gravel, and you could have several cubic feet of active "collective area", much more than any other type of filter. This area doesn't mean that it is more efficient, or better in any sense, but under the right conditions, the U/G filter has its place.
 

Lotus

Ultimate Fish
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Aug 26, 2003
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#3
Happy birthday, and congrats on the new tank :D

I wouldn't recommend a UGF if you're planning on live plants. Most people prefer a hang on back (HOB) power filter. The above post is the exception rather than the norm in fishkeeping these days.

Before you get fish, you should read up on cycling, which is basically what you need to do to make your tank ready for fish. I suggest you read these two articles: http://www.aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=14 and http://www.aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=31

For a simple article on a setup for plants, you can read this article: http://www.aquabotanic.com/begin.htm

Good luck and please feel free to ask any questions :)
 

chasely

Medium Fish
Feb 19, 2005
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#4
Alright...maybe I'm slightly confused.

My tank also came with a "HOB" power filter.

The UGF I'm describing has a "platform" with lines in it to allow air in. Then the power head pulls the air from under the plates via a tube up to the power head. Does this mean I have 2 filters?

Would it be possible to use the HOB filter during the cycling process and then use the UGF after the cycle to help pull down some nutrients to the plants if I use a somewhat weak power head?
 

Lotus

Ultimate Fish
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Aug 26, 2003
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#5
A powerhead is different from a power filter. A powerhead is basically a pump. A powerfilter is a filter that pulls water out of the tank into a box with a filter pad in it, then pours it back into the tank.

You need to use the same filter for cycling as you do for running the tank. Each type works differently and relies on a different place for the bacteria to colonize.

There's a nice article here that explains how each type of filter works: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=16&cat=1979&articleid=2614
 

Dec 25, 2004
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#6
they gave you a good setup you have all you need. the power head is perfect for UGF's and the best way togo. Use them both if your going to use them.

the HOB is used for mechinical filtration and chemical filtration

the UGF is used for Bio filtration.


UGF's take alittle more maintenance and you have to think about that if you are going to have one. If you are not into vaccuming weekly 1 or 2 times. then you might want to go with a solid bottom. I would make sure I wanted to have a UGF before using one. Many people cannot do the required maintenance to keep one up. those who learn how to take care of one have no problems. Anyhow its your choice if you do not like the UGF or how it works you can take it out later.

There is a balance that goes on with plants and UGF's. lightly stocked tanks with a couple plants probably wouldnt fair well with a UGF mainly because the UGF will eat up most of the ammonia/nitrite/wastes before the plants can use them. So you might want to think about that if you really want to do live plants.


some keys to UGF's

vaccum weekly 1-2 times all the way down to the plates. Do it in sections vaccum part of the gravel one week and a different part another.

Never put that stuff that says it Clears up the water in your tank if you have a UGF it just makes junk that clogs up the gravel and wrecks havoc on a UGF.

Get some trumpet cone type snails. they live in the gravel and help keep it turned over and clean.


Anyhow Good Luck what ever you do!!
 

chasely

Medium Fish
Feb 19, 2005
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#7
Thanks a lot guys, this clears up a lot of information. The only question I have now is will the substrate be fine enough to slip through some cracks and get clogged the power head?
 

Dec 25, 2004
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#8
Depends on what substrate you use. if its medium gravel or fine gravel probably not. If you use some type of soil you might need to get a media mat to place on the UGF before adding the soil. the media mat is like the stuff used for filters but you cut it to fit the bottom of your tank. you might look it up and read up about it. I dont think thats the best way togo though. If your going to do a UGF gravel seems to be the best media.
 

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chasely

Medium Fish
Feb 19, 2005
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#9
Can I just use a gravel substrate? I was under the impression I needed some form of nutrient rich substance (like a special soil) for the substrate. The holes that the UGF have are very small so I think a medium gravel or maybe even fine gravel would work.
 

Dec 25, 2004
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#10
I dont think you have to use soil to have a planted tank. some plants may require soil but there are many others that do not require soil.

If your going to have plants then you wouldnt vaccum as much around them so that they can use the nutrients and wastes that get trapped in the gravel.

I would say a finer gravel might be better for plants.

If you have a lighter fish load then you would have to supply nutrients more often for the plants. Many people supply plants with nutrients.

the main difference in using soil is there are nutrients already in the soil where a UGF will be basically empty when you first start. It would take alittle time for the gravel to build up wastes for the plants to use.

With either system I am sure there is a learning curve where at first you may make mistakes then as you learn to care for the plants, fish, etc you become better at it and have a better understanding of whats going on.

I would find out as much as you can about both systems and whats involved then make a choice. Also look into planted tanks and whats involved and whats needed to care for them.
 

chasely

Medium Fish
Feb 19, 2005
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#13
Thanks for the replies guys.

Is there a scientific reason to forego the UGF? Does it take minerals away from the plants or is it just not necessary?
 

Dec 25, 2004
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#14
Its not really needed for plants. It would compete for nutrients in certain situations or set ups. Basically is all about balance with a UGF or without a UGF you will learn about balance. Nutrients, Plants, CO2, Oxygen, Fish, etc, etc... alot of things come into play and your not really going to learn it all in a post. More or less your trading out the UGF for Bio filtration from the plants in the tank. The little hanging filter is more of a mechanical/chemical filtration than a bio filtration.

Look up planted tanks and keep reading ;)
 

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revfred

Superstar Fish
Jun 21, 2003
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#15
The nutrients in the substrate ... more of a fine gravel than a soil last quite awhile. Moreover, it doesn't get compacted and allows for a better flow of nutrients IMO. How long I don't know. I tend to watch the plants' color for nutrient needs. Red Flourite lasts longer than laterite. Have had it in planted tanks for two years and still seems to be doing well. Of course I use supplements.

I tend to stick with a "system" ... so I use Seachem products. I've just switched to Eco-Complete for a substrate and don't have the details on it as yet. You can revitalize a substrate bed with plant tabs. I've found that when the substrate is new, recommended doses will tend to overfertilize. With the Red Flourite I didn't fertilize for about 6 months, and then at significantly less than the recommended doses and frequency, although trace elements which are mostly obtained from the water are depleted more quickly. Allegedly Eco-Complete lasts longer.

IMO the UGF, I'm not that scientific, pulls nutrients away from the plants. Many years ago UGF's were the hot item and I used them exclusively. But then I had exclusively "fish" tanks with few plants and they did not do very well. Moreover, when I tore the tanks down after having them up for many years, the muck and crud under the UGF was unbelievable in spite of regular tank and gravel cleanings.

Some HOB's have in addition to the cartridges, a sponge, sintered glass, or bio-balls/wheels, that give biological filtration. I don't run any carbon unless it is to remove medications. Why? I just found the plants seem to do better without
I've replaced the cartridges with glass wool. An old standby. When cleaning the filter, I just rinse the glass wool (replace it occasionally) and rinse the sponge in declored water (tank or room temperature) to preserve the bacteria colonies.

I will add my voice to the others . . . read, read, read. Combined with the advice from the Tank members you will do well. As FGGuy says, it is a "balance" . . . observation of fish and plants, science, regular testing, keeping a log for each tank, regular gravel vacuuming and water changes, not screwing with the pH (unless really extreme), learning from "bad" experiences, etc. It becomes more of an "art" IMO. Sounds like a lot, but it really isn't. Kind of a "Zen" thing really.