The Discus

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Pure

Elite Fish
Nov 1, 2005
3,216
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Jacksonville, FL
#2
To make this all in one post I'm going to quote you from that other thread on general Discus care. I will try to address all of your questions. But be warned my next post is going to be a long one and is going to take some time. So please have some patience and let me finish before asking more questions.

FishBoy, you make it seem like taking care of any Discus fishies would be a major engery drain on all of us. Every day water change? Are you serious?! Could they be happy with weekly change with excessive filters? Lets just say that I get one of Emperor 400, will that be enough for weekly water change? How about two of Emperor 400, will that be enough for weekly water change or every two weeks? How about I add the UGF with thin gravels? Seriously, a bare tank is ugly. If they must have a bare tank, can they accept under 2 inch of gravel? What kinda gravel? Do they need real plants or will accept fake plants? Do they prefer driftwoods or rocks or just plants? Are you saying to have two heaters working at once, settings to be at 85? If the temperature is going to be that high, then UGF is a must to increase oxygen in the water. You say that it is best to get an adult Discus. How do I know which is an adult? How fast do they grow to become an adult? Most importantly, do they attack humans? Do they have teeth?
 

Jul 22, 2006
567
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#3
Thats okay, Purey. Take your time. I am trying to research the best I can. My mind is kinda slow alot and I always forgetting many things, so it takes quite a bit to get me fully aware of everything.

Thunder
 

Pure

Elite Fish
Nov 1, 2005
3,216
7
0
Jacksonville, FL
#4
Ok I'm going to start off by saying that if you wish to get into discus I highly recommend you try keeping some German blue rams first. Their tolerance for poor water quality is very much close to discus. This will help you to see if your up for the challenge.

Discus are not very difficult, and can be kept by the novice fish keeper as long as a few requirements are met.

First lets address water changes. To keep them healthy your normal schedule of 25% a month will simply not do. 25% every other week will simply not do. Normally when you purchase discus you get young fish. For these guys to grow properly they will require 2-3 large water changes a week, but smaller daily ones are much better. But they can get by on large ones 2-3 times a week. If you do not do this your discus will not grow properly. They will become stunted and their lives will be severely shortened.

The water changes are needed for several reasons. Discus are intolerant to less than pristine water conditions, so right off the bat large frequent water changes are needed. It is long believed that the discus themselves produce a growth inhibiting hormone. This is thought to hinder the growth of the other discus helping the strongest in the tank survive. When young in order to feel comfortable discus need to be kept in large groups, just as if they were a schooling fish need to be in a group of at least 6 fish. They have to be fed 2-3 times a day, this contributes to the water quality going down hill faster than your average community tank. Water changes are the only way to deal with these problems.

Once they become adults you can get by with only doing a 50% water change every week. But this still goes back to my post about nitrates. Every now and then you will need to do several 50% changes in a weeks time to get the nitrate levels down.

Not doing these water changes WILL result in 1 of 2 things. Sick or dead fish. This is not my opinion but is a FACT.

Adding more filters isn't going to help you skimp on these water changes. All that will do is remove more crap from the tank, but the crap is still in the system as it is now just in the filter instead of the tank. Also wile adequate filtration is a must discus do not like loads of current so over doing it can be detrimental. DO NOT USE AN UGF with discus. The chance for a poor water quality is just too much of a risk when using this method of filtration.

With a little thought put into your aquascaping bare bottomed tanks are not ugly. IMHO I wouldn't call my bare bottomed discus tank ugly.


The reason for keeping them bare bottomed again directly relates to water quality. Having gravel makes keeping the tank clean more difficult. It is next to impossible to get all the mulm out of the gravel, wile having the tank bare bottomed you get to see where the poo is so it can be completely removed with your water changes.

Real plants are preferred over fake ones. As they will help keep your water quality up. And your nitrates down. But for this to help you have to pick some plants that will actually use the nitrates faster than they are produced. Most low light plants are slow growers so they offer very little help in this department. Hornwort on the other hand is a very fast growing low light plant that will act like a nitrate sponge.

Discus do like warmer waters than most other tropical fish. Any where between 82-86 is an ideal range for them. This can be accomplished with one heater but in a 55 gal your going to be safer to have 2 smaller heaters. This is because running the tank at these temps is going to put a strain on any one heater and when and if it goes bad chances are it will stick in the on position thus cooking your fish. Having 2 smaller ones means that if this happens the one heater will not have enough power alone to cook your expensive investment.

You mentioned that an UGF is going to be needed for added O2. This is not exactly true. Due to their sensitive nature to water quality. You can not stock the tank like you would a common community tank. This means that there will be plenty of O2 for what fish are in the tank.

Further more discus are not community fish. This is for several reasons. 1 They tend to be very shy and skittish so boisterous tank mates can and will often spook them to the point that they refuse to eat. Then they are doomed to slowly starve. They will not eat just because they are hungry if they are stressed. 2. Their temperature requirements are not going to be healthy for most tropical fish, and will eventually lead the other residents’ demise if kept at these temps long term. 3. Discus are not aggressive eaters and if kept with tank mates that are, chances are good that the discus will not get enough food.

Now this doesn’t mean you can’t keep other fish with discus. It just means you have to choose the tank mates carefully. You have to build the tank and the inhabitants around the needs of the discus.

Tetras like rummy nose, and cardinals are both good choices. Also you can keep some species of pleco with them. With the plecos you have to be careful and keep an eye on them. If the plecos food requirements are not met they will often resort to sucking on the discus’s slime coat. This will stress the discus and can kill them. Blue rams are another good tank mate, as are some species of corie.

You can tell if they are adults simply by their size. An adult can reach lengths of 6-7 inches without the tail. In my tank you can see an example of a sub adult, and my wild discus is full-grown at 7 inches.

LOL No they do not attack humans. I almost choked on my coffee when I read that one..LMAO!!!!

Ok as far as your choice for a vendor. Emm the fish I have seen come from them are often way over priced stunted, hormoned, Asian imports. Sadly a lot of them should have been culled and never sold to the public. Buying discus can be a tricky affair. I would not pay more than 30 bucks for most juveniles, but you have to be careful whom you buy them from. Sadly a lot of commercial vendors will over charge you for crap fish. Your best option is going to be to find a good breeder on aquabid and buy from them. If you have any questions about any particular seller I will be more than happy to tell you if they are on the up and up.
 

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Jul 22, 2006
567
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#6
Okay, my mind is overloading. I am going to ask the first question. On the LiveAquaria site, that I've given, are they trustworthy? The last I saw, there was size Medium and Large for sale. Should I get the Large? I am unsure of size for the Large. Should I add one by one, or save up considerably and buy the pack of 6?

How many Blue Rams should I get to prevent overcrowding the 6 Discus?

How did you do that groups of gravels in your tank?

Thanks for your help.

Thunder

Oh Guppy, saw you in the chat room last night, but you took off w/out saying a word. :(
 

Pure

Elite Fish
Nov 1, 2005
3,216
7
0
Jacksonville, FL
#7
Again I would not buy from them for quality reasons, but yes as a vendor they are trustworthy. This is going to be your best source for fair priced quality fish AquaBid.com - Your Aquatic Auction Website .

You want to buy as many at one time as you can possibly afford. This will help them get along better in the tank. If you add some later they can be picked on because they are the new guy. This is typical cichlid behavior. Rearranging the tank when adding new fish will help curve this behavior.

I can tell you that only having 2 in a tank is a bad idea. One will always get picked on.

I wouldn't put more than 3 Male German blue rams in a 55. The tank will support more, but when keeping discus you don't want to max out your bio-load with other fish.

In my tank I used glass containers I found at Wally World to hold the gravel and plants in.
 

Jul 22, 2006
567
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#8
Okay, thanks. Upon close inspection, it is glass bowls. What make you decide to do that? Wouldnt waste also be in those portable gravels? Do you clean those out or leave them untouch, due to plant reasons?

Thunder
 

Pure

Elite Fish
Nov 1, 2005
3,216
7
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Jacksonville, FL
#9
Because they are raised up and the tank has good circulation very little collects in them. I leave them untouched for the plants. Every so often I will poke around in them with a long plastic tube just to help prevent anaerobic bacteria spots from forming.

I decided to do that with the bowls because this tank is in my living room and I wanted something nice to look at. Yet still be able to keep it clean for the discus.
 

Jul 9, 2003
8,866
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37
Columbia, SC
www.youtube.com
#11
Ok I'm going to start off by saying that if you wish to get into discus I highly recommend you try keeping some German blue rams first. Their tolerance for poor water quality is very much close to discus. This will help you to see if your up for the challenge.
I don't know pure, maybe its bad stock but i can't keep Rams to save my life....but can keep discus like there is no tomorrow. ;)

I agree with the barebottem tank. However i did enjoy the sand substrate i used to have in mine. I've kept simi planted discus tanks, full BB tanks, and half BB tanks. Here is a pic of my Halfass plant job and half BB...Of course you can tell it is and was unfished.


And again will echo to not buy from Live Aquaria....personally i'd go straight to the breeders. Aquabid can be good but i'd research the sellers very well first. Where are you located? There might be a breeders real close that you can acctually go to the pick out the fish.
 

Pure

Elite Fish
Nov 1, 2005
3,216
7
0
Jacksonville, FL
#12
Good point. I have noticed the quality of rams in the shops varying to some degree. Going from all died in a few days to all are ok months later.

Meh I still say for a person who is used to only doing water changes once a month that rams would be a good stepping stone fish. If you get a bad batch wait a month or so then try again.

Oh yeah...wanted to add. Thunder, don't let all the hoopla about them needing soft water scare you off. They do fine in tap water as long as it isn't Rift Lake hard, anything 7.8 and under should be fine, as long as you acclimate them to this SLOWLY. Luckily most breeders keep their non breeding stock at tap water parameters.
 

Jul 22, 2006
567
4
0
#13
Cichlid-Man, what is that on the bottom of your tank? Is it okay to use that? Whats the different effect of using that and going fully barebottom? Thats a really strange lights you are using. I do not think it is wise, because of the major opening at the top, thus a fish can jump out. What filter are you using? I do not see an intake tube.

I live in Oklahoma City. There is a store, Aquarium Concept, and its the best in the OKC metro area. However, I have not been there for several years and I finally went there a few weeks ago and there are new people (too young) working there. These people seem to be pure idiots when I asked what goes with Tiger Barbs. Maybe they are morons or didnt know what to do with a 'deaf customer'. I did not pay attention fully to all of their fishes. I plan some day to check if they sell Discus. There was a guy that I like best, but he does not work there anymore. He really taught me alot.

Purey, I plan to have PH at 7.0, because of Corys. I've never tested the tap water directly, but I should some day. All I know, the water is HARD. Neutral Regulator itself will not bring the PH down to 7.0, so I have to use the Discus Buffer along with it to successfully maintain 7.0.

Another thing, the topic of salt. I do not want an Ich outbreak, so salt is a must in the water at all time. So, does Discus tolerate aquarium salt?

Thunder
 

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Jul 9, 2003
8,866
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37
Columbia, SC
www.youtube.com
#14
-Thats eco complete substrate back when i attempted plants.
-AquaClear 500 filter
-The lights are just meant as a more decrative touch then anything, wouldn't be good for the plants but gives the water a nice brownish look and puts in some nice ripples.
-The fish may jump...but i put the tops on at night.
-BB tanks would be much easier to clean then any tank with substrate on the bottem. It may not look natural (unless you go the route that Pure went) but it makes for a pretty bright tank. :) I don't find BB tanks all that bad...i acctually like them because if you keep them clean the fish REALLY stand out.
 

Pure

Elite Fish
Nov 1, 2005
3,216
7
0
Jacksonville, FL
#15
Ok listen to me very carefully. I've already said this once. Do not use chemicals of any sort to lower your PH. There is just no way to keep it stable, it will often fluctuate with you doing this. The use of RO water is the only 100% safe way to play with one's PH. These chemicals don't do any thing for the hardness of your water, all they do is add acids to the tank. Why mess with one when the other is just as important.

Furthermore, unless you are trying to breed these fish or your water is liquid rock with a PH higher than 7.8-8.0, there is no need to mess with it just for keeping fish healthy. Chances are you are actually doing more harm than good by messing with these chemicals. A stable PH is more important than proper PH.

Salt is also NOT needed as a preventative in a discus tank, or really any other tank for that matter. If you do your job right and take care of your fish they should never come down with ich. If they do...Ich is one of the easiest ailments to treat. I don't even give it a second glance any more. I make it my b*tch and handle it.

And yes this contradicts what I just said about hard water being ok, but adding salt is only going to add to the mineral content in your water. This is a NONO for Discus. They will adapt to tap water just fine, but why make already bad water worse for them?
 

Jul 22, 2006
567
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#16
Okay, so just plain tap water for the Discus. What about the Corys?

I just tested the PH from the tap water and its 8.0 and I have another question. Just dont scream. Are there already Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate in the tap water?

So, I do not need to use chemicals for the Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate right? The filter and plants will take care of all that, right? So, I can just hook up the Phyton hose to the faucet sink to drain the daily water change and then reverse the flow to add water directly, right? If thats right, then water change is a snap! (more happier)

Thunder
 

Pure

Elite Fish
Nov 1, 2005
3,216
7
0
Jacksonville, FL
#17
LOL I'm sorry if it came off like I wasn't screaming.

The cories will be fine in tap water also. Do let some of your tap water sit in a glass over night and test the PH after 24 hrs. It will either rise or it will fall. If it rises you need to look at alternatives to getting it down, like mixing RO water in with your water change. Or actually buying an RO unit. Decent ones can be found on ebay for less than 100 bucks. Just please do not use chemicals. At the very least use peat to knock it down a bit. Using Peat is by far more stable.

It's not unheard of for tap water to contain some nitrate, and is pretty rare but does happen that it can contain ammonia. Test your tap water to find out.

If ammonia is found in tap water it can come from either actually being ammonia or your water could contain chloromine instead of chlorine. This is a chlorine and ammonia mix that has been bonded together. Your dechlorinate will break this bond making it non toxic to the fish. The side effect are readable levels of ammonia in your tank. The good news is the levels are normally pretty low, and if they have been there all along your bio-filter should be able to absorb them before they harm any fish.
 

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ram man

Superstar Fish
Apr 16, 2005
1,441
4
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Arizona
#19
nice info pure, quick question, i want to do a discus tank in the future, 100 gallon, its still in the planning process and will be for the next year or two, are there any dwarf cichlids that cannot be kept with discus? and for the 100 gallon i want to understock it, maybe 3 discus at the most and some dwarf cichlids if possible, would this be ok? and are there any filter that would be good for a tank like this? i know it should be a canister, but what size?
 

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