Red Spots?

[dcb1001]

I just bought two new goldfish, and put them in a tank together. The bottom is lined with the little colored stones that were sold at my pet store. I've been feeding them both goldfish flakes (which mostly float, but sometimes get caught in the current from the filtration system and sink before my goldfish get to them) and pellets (which sink). I was told at my pet store that the combination helped my goldfish get the nutrients they needed.

Anyways, I've had my fish for about a week now and I noticed that one of my goldfish has red marks around (in?) his mouth and is missing a scale on his side. He's the bigger of the two goldfish, so I don't think there's any bullying (plus I watch them alot and have never seen signs of bullying), but I'm still concerned. Is he just playing too rough with the (sharp?) rocks? I see him occationally pick up one of the rocks while he's eating and spit it back out later... but I'm worried regardless. I've bought medicated food and taken steps to prevent infection (raising the water temperature slowly, etc), but it's been 24 hours and he only looks a little better. He's also typically the less active of the two goldfish, so I can't tell if he's more lethargic than normal, or if I'm just imagining something. The other goldfish looks fine.

Thanks for your help
-Dave

 

[Seleya]

Could you give us more info about the fish and your tank? How large are the fish? Are they fancy or singletailed fish? What size tank are they in? What other inhabitants are in the tank? What are you water parameters?

 

[dcb1001]

I believe my goldfish are veiltailed, but there were mislabeled at Petco and were almost pure white when I got them and I'd never seen a pure white veiltailed goldfish before (they've since turned a little orange). Maybe they were so white from being kept indoors? Anyways, I had to keep them over a weekend (one night, two days) together in a 10 gallon tank, but I did 75% water changes at least twice a day with bottled spring water and used a filtration system and since have moved them to a 20 gallon tank. It's just the two of them in there, and they have a good filtatration system (I still change the water alot too). I figured they were together in a ten-gallon tank at Petco and I was giving them a good home; I hope I didn't hurt them, but they seemed fine when they switched tanks.

I've checked the pH of the water, it's fine, but I haven't checked the ammonia, nitrate or nirate levels yet (I've never had a problem with bottled spring water before, and I always get the same brand and do 50% changes as often as I can).

Honestly, these are my first fancy fish. All my fish before these were feeder goldfish, and I was great with them. I lost one to stress (we won him at a fair, and he wasn't too healthy) and another randomly (I still don't know what happened; the tank was fine and all the other fish have lived in that tank for a long time since)... but these fish are bigger than what I'm used to (about an inch and a half long) and I'm not sure if I'm feeding them right. I'm worried that it might be a bacterial infection from Petco, and I ordered medicated food online (I read that MediKoi was the best), but it won't get here until the beginning of next week and I'm worried if he'll make it. I've been feeding them just TetraFin goldfish flakes and pellets, and what they can finish in about thirty seconds to a minute, three times a day. They have to get the pellets from the ground though, and alot of the times they pick up rocks and spit them back out. The guy at Petco said this was fine...but now I'm worried.

Thanks so much for your help. I hope this answers your questions.

 

[dcb1001]

I'd also like to add that I turned off the light on the tank (usually I only turn it off at night) and now both the goldfish are acting way more lethargic than normal. Usually they swim right up to the glass when I walk by, and now they're occationally lying on the bottom of the tank (not gasping for air or anything, just lying there), hiding... but not all the time. They perked up a little when I did a water change, but went right back to hiding / lying / swimming slowly when I left and came back later.

 

[Seleya]

You're doing a lot of things right but it sounds most like your tank is cycling and your fish are being affected by ammonia poisoning. Are you familiar with the nitrogen cycle? Why are you using spring water? Is your tap water unsafe for fish? What is your exact pH? Are you using the same brand (source) of spring water every time? Are you using any chemicals in the water currently?

My initial recommendation is to perform another 50% minimum water change (being sure to get a water sample before the change) then run down to your lfs and have them test the water for you (get NUMBERS, not 'it's fine') Don't buy anything except a test kit (they'll try to sell you Cycle or other products, most likely) Get the master test kit or single boxes of the "drop style" test kits. (strip test kits aren't usually as accurate or precise) You will need to monitor your water closely.

Fancies are a bit more demanding than commons -- they like things a bit warmer and cleaner (some much more so than others).

I wouldn't worry too much about their picking up rocks -- this is normal behavior. You do want to watch that the rocks are smooth and not of a size that can get caught in their mouths. I like the natural colored Turtle Pebbles Petco sells. Some of their "stream" pebbles are nice too for something a bit darker.

BTW, those 10 gallon tanks you see at a LFS are usually on a central filtration system -- in actuality, the fish are in several hundreds of gallons being circulated through their tanks. Overstocked -- yup, but temporary.

 

[dcb1001]

I've been using bottled water because I had clouding issues in the past with some of the water conditioners in my tap water. I'm not sure whether it was the tap water (my apartment is old, so the lines might be old too) or the "Pur" brand filter I use on my sinks or the conditioners themselves, but before I head over to Petco, what brand water conditioner would you recommend? Is the bottled water bad for them? Bottled water is definitely heavier and more of a pain to get into my apartment, but I've been using it almost sincethe beginning because I thought my fish looked happier.

Also, should I still feed my fish the MediKoi food for a few days? From what I've been reading, it seems like it might be a good idea in case they were exposed to something at the store... but at the same time I don't want to risk them becoming immune to antibiotics if they're not sick from a bacterial infection.

 

[Seleya]

I prefer Prime, tho I also like AmQuel. When you get your kit, test your tap water also -- do the pH both immediately and after the water has been allowed to sit overnight.

Aside from really adding up expense wise (yikes!) spring water shold be safe but, if it's from different sources could have dramatically different parameters, which would be stressful to the fish. Distilled water is too 'pure' -- all trace elements are removed and it is not a good idea to use that exclusively. Another problem with bottled water is that it is simply a heck of a lot more work which will cause most humans to want to do fewer water changes.

While your tank is cycling, it is expected to have some clouding as the bacteria establish themselves (it's a milky white type of cloudiness). Have you been vacuuming the gravel during the water changes?

 

[dcb1001]

So I checked the ammonia, the nitrate and the nitrite levels. The nitrite and the nitrate level both read almost zero (well in the "safe" range) and you're right, the ammonia level was suprisingly high (just under 3.0 ppm mg/L). I did two 85 - 90% water changes a little less than an hour apart and now my in-tank ammonia reader is reading zero (again, well in the "safe" range). The pH of the tap water was very loy (just above 5), but I treated it and got it back to just under 7 (I also added water conditioner).

I'm still worried about the red spots though, and now his gills are looking a little red too. I'm waiting to see if he improves, but in the time being is there anything else I can do to help him along? I'm worried.

I went ahead and took some pictures.



The redness seems to be the same on both sides of his face.

Thanks again for your time and help.

 

[Big Vine]

Just glanced at this thread, and I'm glad to see you're sorting things out. Kudos for keeping up with the water changes now that you're aware of what's going on inside of your tank.

The nitrite and the nitrate level both read almost zero (well in the "safe" range)...now my in-tank ammonia reader is reading zero (again, well in the "safe" range).

Here's a tip for you...
There's no 'safe range' to speak of when it comes to ammonia and nitrites...They're either zero (safe) or above zero (not safe).

Keep doing what you're doing with the water-changes and you'll have happy fish!

Big Vine

 

[dcb1001]

Big Vine, thanks so much for your help.

I said "safe range" because the meters I own vary in color with changes in pH, ammonia, nitrates and nitrites (they're the kind you leave in the tank for 4-6 weeks), and it's tough to say if it's exactly the color corresponding to zero or not. Is there a version with a numerical print-out I don't know about?

 

[Big Vine]

There is a company called Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc. (API for short) that sells a "Freshwater Master Test Kit" that includes dropper-bottles for testing ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, and pH. It comes with the little test tubes that you need for measuring.

You can find these at PetSmarts, PetCos, and pretty much any other LFS-type place...it's in a green box.

Just nab some tank water into the test tubes to the fill-line, add the required drops...do some shaking of the tubes here and there...then let them sit for the required amount of time. Longest wait-time is only 5 minutes!

There are color charts included that you hold the test tube up against to find your results.

Hope I didn't bore you with too much detail here.
Big Vine

 

[dcb1001]

No, not bored at all. Thanks for the info. I just bought a 4-6 week meter, but as soon as I'm ready to buy again I'll take your advice.

 

[Seleya]

Do you have a tap that is not hooked up to a water purifier? The low pH may be because of the Pur. Are you on a well or municipal water?

You really don't want to be monkeying around with pH too much, especially when the fish are already stressed. It is extremely stressful for a fish to be subjected to wild pH swings. Most "stabilizers" found over the counter at lfs don't HOLD the pH stable and pH crashes can be deadly.

As I suggested before, the dropper test is important to have -- those meters are easier but you have other things you may also need to test. Draw a glass of water from your tap and allow it to sit out overnight then test the pH again. You may also run some samples to the pet store and have them test them for you.

While stability is more important than actual numbers within reason, goldfish typically do better with a pH above 7 -- mine are kept in 7.4 - 7.6.

 

[dcb1001]

The pH seems to be pretty stable. I did my water changes early last night and this afternoon, the pH is up just a little, at about 7. I've been using just straight tap water (municipal water), without the Pur purifier, and reading it again today, just to be sure, it's still reading low.

But what about the red spots? They seem to be getting worse. Is this from the ammonia or pH or something else?

 

[Seleya]

Their gills will be very inflamed due to the ammonia poisoning. Where they are white fish, you will see more internally than a colored fish. There could very likely be secondary infections. The best way to treat these fish, unless you can narrow down a secondary infection, is pristine water conditions. The medicated food should help as well, but closely monitoring your water is the most important thing to do for the time being, being sure to change the water as needed. I would also feed lightly until the fish and tank are a bit more stable.

As far as the pH, what happens is that some municipalities (and some in home water purifiers) will affect the pH (usually to protect the mainlines from water damage), given a day for the temporary effect to gas off, the water's actual pH will be seen, which is why I suggested you check a glass a day after drawing it. Your water may be coming out of the tap lower than your fish will appreciate, but may naturally balance itself out after a day to a very acceptable level. If that is the case, you can either 'age' your water overnight before waterchanges to allow the pH lowering agents to gas off or perform more frequent, smaller water changes so the tank doesn't experience the type of swings massive water changes will cause.

 

[dcb1001]

Seleya thank you so much for your help, but just one more question. (Sorry)

You said it was normal to see clouding in the water during the start of an aquarium. My water was perfectly clear when I went to bed last night (I changed almost all the water yesterday) and when I woke up this morning it was very cloudy. I've let it sit until now (~6 hours), and it's getting slightly better and now just looks like heavy fog. Is this okay? I used the brand of water conditioner that you recommended.

Again, thanks so much for your help. I really appreciate all the time you've spent helping me (and my fish).

 

[Seleya]

This is likely a bacterial bloom and a normal part of the cycling process, some people see it more than others. I tend to go a great deal on my fishes' behavior, then test. With cycling, tho, you want to do the reverse but regulate the tank according to both sets of input.

Goldfish are fun, nosy little beggers. They rummage around the bottom, poke through anything they can find and quickly learn where food comes from. If they're sitting or hiding a lot, check your water. If they're not eating, you're in real trouble! As you have seen, better water makes for happier fish! Sometimes, even if the parameters are perfectly normal, I find reason to do a water change anyways beyond my usual schedule (with goldies, at least weekly is really optimal) If you don't have any live plants in with your guys, you may want to grab some anacharis -- goldfish love it to nibble on -- you don't have to plant it, the goldies will likely uproot it anyways (I occasionally anchor some down but mostly let it float) Petco has a sale on plants right now and usually carries it. As an added plus, plants can help with levels while cycling.