PH Problems..

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Luna

New Fish
#1
Oct 22, 2002
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#1
 Hello everyone I am new to the board and the fish scene and i need some help.  I have had a 55 gal tank for about 2 months now.  It contains 2 plecos, 4 juvenile oscars and 4 snails.  Until yesterday all was fine.  The PH in the tank won't stay between the 7.0 - 8.0 range, which i normally keep. It keeps dropping to below 6.0.  The oscars and snails were all stressed and staying at the top of the water like they were all gasping for air.  Luckily I didn't lose any fish.  I put them all in a
30 gal tank as began the water changes.
  I have done approximately 6 water changes to no avail ranging from 20% to almost 100% ,I coudln't get all the water siphoned out and I coulnd't get a helping hand to help me dump out the remaining inches of water.  The water smelled extremely foul like rotten eggs.  And the filters (whisper 3 and a 4) had slimey foul smelling sludge in them.  I washed the gravel out and found 2 leeches!  I rinsed off all rocks/slates and rinsed out the filters, got all the slime off and rinsed out the filter bags. I filled the tank back up added my usual stress zyme and chlorine remover that I do with every water change.  The PH stayed at 7 till I checked it last Around midnight last night.  This morning it was back down below 6.0 again.  Now I don't know what to do.  The fish store I frequent is closed on Mondays..I need some help.  Can anyone tell me what is going on?
Any input will be greatly appreciated...
Luna
 

R

ronrca

Guest
#2
#2

Sounds like you have some major problems. Check  your tap water. What is your pH and hardness? What do you have in the tank for decor? Do you add any chemicals to adjust the pH or hardness?
 

L

Luna

New Fish
#3
Oct 22, 2002
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#3
 Thank you for responding..my tap water ph is about 7.8.  I don't have any test kits to test for hardness.  And, no I didn't add any chemicals to raise/or lower ph.  I have just been doing the water
changes in an attempt to avoid going the chemical route.
 The only thing different that I used is I added some ammo-chips in with the carbon that goes into the filter bag.  I know Oscars are messy so I thought the addition of ammo-chips would be a good idea in the long run.  Could this have caused my ph problems?  The only decorations in the tank are 1 piece of rainbow slate, 1 piece of red slate and a couple of peice of petrified wood.  A vegi clip with cucumber for plecos.
 How did the leeches get in my tank?  I do get feeder guppies/goldfish from the pet shop, did they get into my tank via that route?
Thnaks again for responding
luna
 

R

ronrca

Guest
#4
#4

Ok! How long ago did you replace the carbon? I dont think it the ammo-chips. It might help however to replace the carbon or leave it out totally.
 

R

ronrca

Guest
#5
#5

About the leaches  ??? ??? ??? I dont know. I would say cucumbers!! I dont think from the feeder fish.
 

Matt Nace

Matt Nace

Superstar Fish
#6
Oct 22, 2002
1,470
1
38
Pennsylvania
#6
I am thinking that your water may not be very hard , in disolved carbonates or calcium.Lack of one of these means your water can fail to "buffer" the water in certain situations, so you dont get the big PH swing you are having.

Oscars are very messy eaters, and  give off plenty of wastes. Ammonia itself will be/or is a problem, but I am guessing with the combanation of leftover food, waste from the Oscars and plecoes, and your possability of a low carbanate hardness, that that the decaying of all this is using up a lot of oxegen. The increased carbon dioxide is driving your PH down.

You need an ammonia test, nitrIte test, NitrAte test (you have a PH), and a Hardness test.

===You need to aerate the water a lot to keep the Oxegen in the water, and drive off some of the carbon dioxide.If the temperture is getting in the 80's, the oxegen is not getting disolved as well as lower temperature water.

  Dont feed for 24 hours.
===Limit the feedings to once a day, sparingly. Dont use feeders at this time(which can carry disease and parasites(your leech?) if they are not from your own breeding!! )
  Use cichlid pellets for now.

===Never clean both whispers at the same time. Alternate their cleanings on different days.

===Make sure you vaccuum the gravel when you do a weekly(or more) waterchange(s).

With those two filters, you must get a lot of ammonia. Ammonia carbon will help to control it, but your biological bacteria will never develop to the full load it need to handle all the ammonia from your fish, and their waste, and the uneaten food. Also cleaning your filters, and changing the media at the same time will make you lose bacteria.

I suggest a canister filter with bio-media, or a magnum with bio-wheel to help with the ammonia and nitites. Eventually, some of the fish will have to go as they get bigger.

Those 4 oscars and 2 plecoes will be too much in that tank eventually.

The rotten eggs smell is really not good. That could be Hydrogen sulfide, which is from the gravel getting gunk in it, and forming anerobic conditions(low to no oxegen) This gas is deadly, and will smell like rotten eggs. One sign, besides the smell, is if you move the gravel, bubbles will come out.(unless you just put the gravel in the tank)

You first course of action is too aerate with a strong pump, and a large airstone.
I hope I helped, and not confused you.
 

Matt Nace

Matt Nace

Superstar Fish
#7
Oct 22, 2002
1,470
1
38
Pennsylvania
#7
Your Oscars I forgot to say are gasping for oxegen...supply it and your PH will stay near where it should be.

You can find air pumps and stones ect. at walmart and places like this.
 

R

ronrca

Guest
#8
#8

Ruby, where can I find info on carbon dioxide affecting pH? I have not heard of it.
 

L

Luna

New Fish
#9
Oct 22, 2002
5
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#9
 Thank you sooooooo much Barb..

 Before I got a chance to check the board again..I broke down and did another water change. It's been 2 hours and the ph is staying at 7.0 and the foulness is gone, for now.  I believe I added the ammo chips/new carbon approx on wed/thurs.  Would it have taken till Sunday to get all chaotic like this?  I do have an ammonia test and when all this starting getting ugly it was reading .5-1ppm.  Then I stared the water chages and subsequently the ammonia has been nil.
 I live in south florida so the temp in the tank hangs at the 80 mark and that's without the heater being on. I only feed these guys once a day, Hikari Chichlid Gold.. but not sparingly ..(bad mommy).  I didn't realize about cleaning the whispers separate times, that makes sense.  I do a 20% water change every week with a siphon.
But thank you for your help..I am hookin up the airstone as we speak..will keep you posted.
Luna
 

R

ronrca

Guest
#10
#10

The carbon will not affect anything in a short period of time. However, over time, carbon will become 'old' and release harmful chemicals back into the water. I dont know if it would affect ph though.
 

L

Luna

New Fish
#11
Oct 22, 2002
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#11
 I think the "old" carbon was in the filter for about a month maybe more. How often should I change the carbon/ clean filter bags?  Well I have hoooked up the airstone, ph is atill at 7.0, when should I put all the tenants back in?
luna
 

R

ronrca

Guest
#12
#12

I did find some info.! www.notcatfish.com
"CO2 concentration must exceed 25 ppm before becoming dangerous to fish although the pH drop caused as carbon dioxide levels increase is more concerning. This is because as carbon dioxide dissolves it forms carbonic [glow=white,5,5]acid[/glow]." Live and learn.

Aging carbon depends on how much waste is being produced. I usually like to change carbon every 4 weeks. What Im working on currently is replacing the carbon filters with bio cubes/balls instead. Im not a fan of activated carbon.
 

O

Ovrclckd

Large Fish
#17
Oct 22, 2002
150
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#17
[quote author=ronrca link=board=beginner&num=993481161&start=0#11 date=06/25/01 at 15:18:45]
I did find some info.! www.notcatfish.com
"CO2 concentration must exceed 25 ppm before becoming dangerous to fish although the pH drop caused as carbon dioxide levels increase is more concerning. This is because as carbon dioxide dissolves it forms carbonic [glow=white,5,5]acid[/glow]." Live and learn.

Aging carbon depends on how much waste is being produced. I usually like to change carbon every 4 weeks. What Im working on currently is replacing the carbon filters with bio cubes/balls instead. Im not a fan of activated carbon.

[/quote]

A few things. This is more in the range of marine knowledge, but is certainly applicable to fw.

Activated carbon goes to work immediately, in a tank in dire need of a.c., it will do most of its work in the first 24 hours, and finishes in about a month in a typical tank. Activated carbon uses a weak charge to attach the d.o.c to the surface of the granule. Bacteria break down the doc on the surface of the carbon, and a chemical process takes place where gases are expelled and the doc goes from being adsorbed to absorbed. While some of it is still adsorbed, it does not release them back into the water once the carbon is finished. Not familiar with the reason off hand.

Your ph is low and unstable, to keep it at proper levels, you need to increase the carbonate hardness (KH) of the water. This is not a temporary solution, like ph up or ph down. Grab oyster shells, crush them, and put them in a nylon in the filter. That is one of the best natural buffers we use in marine aquaria, anyone want to tell my why it wouldn't work for freshwater?
 

R

ronrca

Guest
#18
#18

Quote from www.notcatfish.com

"Carbon is a very absorptive material. It is only effective for a short period of time before requiring replacement. This is to avoid substances, which having been absorbed by the carbon, washing back into the aquarium."

I have also read elsewhere that 'old' carbon will release harmful substances over time back into the water.
 

J

JWright

Superstar Fish
#20
Oct 22, 2002
2,192
7
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39
Snowy Upstate New York
www.cnytheater.com
#20
[quote author=clothahump link=board=beginner&num=993481161&start=0#12 date=06/25/01 at 16:14:56]
Two things here, Activated carbon will soak up impurties until they are saturated and then dump them back into your water.
[/quote]

That's a common misconception, carbon really won't dump anything back into the water unless it's under some extreme stresses (temp, pressure, etc.) that would kill the fish anyway.

I only run carbon in new setups, or in tanks I think have been chemically contaminated (it's amazing how silly people can be...:)). Frequent water changes wil dilute any chemicals that build up before they reach toxic levels.

I realize it's been a while since this topic was active, but I'm new here, so I thought I'd throw my two cents in.

To address you question Luna, I wouldn't worry about your pH at all. The concept of "pH" is sort of a buzz word and IMO, it's really not that big a deal. Most fish are very adaptable and can handle most any pH (so long as it's stable).

You problem is most likely that you tank hasn't finished cycling yet. Your fish are being stressed by high levels of nitrite (and possibly ammonia).

The tank is still cycling because of all the cleaning you have done. You essentially set yourself back to square one by cleaning every surface in the tank. You got rid of all your nitrifying bacteria and now the tank has to re-cycle.

IMO, those "bacteria-in-a-bottle" products (Stress-Zyme) don't do much. All they really do is part you from your money.

MRB, I don't think an air stone will help much, the two HOB Whispers would certainly stir the water around enough to sufficiently aerate it. I suspect the fish aren't getting enough O[sub]2[/sub] because their gills have been damaged by the nitrite.

OBK, yes oyster shells/crushed coral would work, but Oscars are S. American fish (low pH, low TDS) and the resulting pH/TDS would be higher than ideal.

One last thing before I'm done...is anyone still reading? :)

Ammo-chips are a bit of a pet-peeve of mine. They are another product that's just designed to take your money away. When you add ammo-chips, they start absorbing ammonia (amazing, eh:)), but where are they taking that ammonia from? Simple, they are taking it from the mouths, so to speak, of your nitrifying bacteria. IOW, ammo-chips breed a dependence on themselves. By absorbing ammonia, they starve your nitrifying bacteria, so that you can't take them out without having to cycle your tank again. There are certainly circumstances that warrant ammo-chips (hospital tanks, QT setups, other temp. tanks), but they aren't for long term use.

Well, it's late, I hope some of this made sense...

Josh
 

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