Im soooo scared!

[RedTurquoise]

The tank has been running for many months however with not a large fish load. I realize that but by doing 80% water changes, I should be able to reduce the bio load created from the fish waste (one thing that I would like to find out is how long does it take for waste to 'decompose' and start creating ammonia?). I dont think that my bio has a problem with the fish load but it could be possible. Unfortunately, ammonium will still cycle to nitrites and I asked specific questions on Simplydiscus about this. Ammonium, being nontoxic, will cycle into nitrites and there is no form of nontoxic nitrites. Im still uncertain though that prime will betoxicify nitrites because I after I filled the tank, I dosed the tank at twice the regular dosage (I always dose the holding barrel first at the regular dosage).

Of course, this does lead to the bio filter not being large enough to handle the fish load plus the additional ammonium from the tap water hence the cycling. Tonight, I will test for nitrites in the holding barrel and see at what levels it is.

The reason I dont think it is my bio is because before I was doing only 30% water changes daily and did not notice nitrites therefore bio was handling less chloramine side effects and more fish load (of course before, I didnt treat for chloramines regularly either, only every 2-3 water change).

Any suggestions in quickly reducing nitrites? 90% or 30% water changes? Does salt help with nitrites?

Thanks Dave! I appreciate it!

 

[Dave C]

Yes salt helps with nitrites.  But Prime does detoxify nitrites.  I have spoken with people at Seachem and it will detoxify the nitrites.  Send them an email and ask if the nitrites will still register on your test kit.

Dave

 

[Dave C]

btw, I checked the post on Simply that you referred to.  The single response that you got is incorrect, Seachem Prime does detoxify nitrites.  I don't know what it does to it since it can't make it "go away" but it binds it up somehow and makes in non-toxic to the fish so I assume it would also detoxify the nitrites created by the conversion of ammonium.

Dave

 

[RedTurquoise]

Ok! Maybe Im not explaining myself properly. Its not that Im not believing that Prime detoxifies nitrites, Im wondering about the nitrites produced afterward the water change. What I mean is, I use the recommended dosage in the 45G barrel (4.5 squirts, usually 5 when completely empty), I fill the tank. Will the Prime after it has reacted with the chloramine, still detoxicify the nitrites produced from the ammonium and any nitrites produced from fish waste? Or do I have to dose the tank again after 12 hours? And how much Prime do you use when you have 0.3ppm nitrites?

Another question is does the bacteria still 'process' the detoxicified nitrites?

Thanks Dave and good point on e-mailing Seachem. Will do it!

 

[Dave C]

Here's the response I got from Seachem (I'll post in on Simply too)...

"The detoxification of nitrite by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use the nitrite. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.


I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product. Prime has the ability to bind these pollutants for up to a 24 hour period and can be used daily until your biological filter can catch up."

Hope that helps.  You must overdose Prime to detoxify nitrite it seems.

Dave

 

[RedTurquoise]

Again, thanks Dave! The only question arises is how much Prime to 'detoxicify' 0.3 nitrites? 5x the regular dosage?

A little update!
Saturday night skittish! Sunday, fish were fine, swimming at near the top and front as soon as I enter the room. However, I observed something a little interesting/weird. I have an automatic feeder setup to feed at 10am and 2pm. Since I was home at 2pm, I wanted to see what happened. Well, like I said, the discus were fine and at 2pm, the feeder did its thing and as soon as the motor started turning, the discus could hear it and zooom, to the top they went. That was cool! What was not cool was the amount of food that was 'dumped' into the tank. A lot and it took them a while to finish it. After that, they were skittish again. Over eating? The feeder was empty so I filled it again and set the amount of food to dump less and I tried it this morning. They were skittish this morning also. The feeder fed the right amount.

Could that be a reason also? Over eating make skittish? The fish were fine Sunday and I thought that it was improving.

I also e-mailed Seachem and I specificly asked them about when the bond is broken between ammonia and Prime, what happens with the Prime? Can it be used again?

 

[Dave C]

Overfeeding shouldn't make them skittish.  But if the food is uneaten it will degrade your water and that's where the problem probably lies.  My guess is still that your filter is not capable of handling the new larger fishload.  

If you're changing water daily then the Prime should handle the nitrite for each 24 hour period as they said in their response.

Dave

 

[RedTurquoise]

I thought overeating should not be causing skittish. The food does get eaten, just takes a little longer but the more food, the more waste and sometimes there is a lot. Well, I'll keep battling nitrites with Prime. Should I add Prime until the discus are not skittish? How fast does Prime work? Wait an hour before adding more?

 

[Dave C]

I don't use Prime anymore, nor do I use any water conditioner.  I would add whatever the recommended dosage is for the water you're adding.  But I'd add it to the water drum before changing the water.  So I'd only add it when I was doing a water change.

It could be that your fish are skittish because of the chloramines that were added to your tank back on Sep 6 without any water conditioner.  This stuff does do harm to the fish and I don't know how quickly they will recover.  And now if your tank is registering nitrites then I'd guess your filter is not working properly for the fishload in the tank.  You seem convinced that this is because of the Prime, I'm betting it's not, it's because of the addition of 10 Discus (I think it was 10) to a 30g tank (I think that's the size) that previously housed 3 Discus (guessing again).  That's a big increase in the biological load.  Then you changed 33% water daily and did not treat the chloramines.  Now you're changing 80% and are finding that ammonia & nitrite are registering.  This indicates to me that your filter can't keep up.  Your fish were freaked out by the chloramines and are now freaked out by the nitrites.  I would keep doing large water changes, continue to add Prime (possibly double the dose but I'd ask Seachem for dosage advice) and if possible I'd move some cycled media into the tank.

Dave

 

[jts112278]

Hey guys-

After racking my brain all weekend I have decided that the bacteria was killed while cleaning my sponges and the tank is now re-cycling. I will continue with large water changes until the tank re-cycles. I did have one question though since my logic was based on a single premise.

If i age my water for 24 hours before doing a water change, for each water change the ph will be the same since the same water is being treated in the same way.

Is this correct?

Thanks

 

[Dave C]

The pH should be the same.  Test it & see.

 

[RedTurquoise]

I don't use Prime anymore, nor do I use any water conditioner.

What do you use or do for chloramines?

Yea, I know my bio isnt big enough.  :-/ Otherwise I would not be having this problem. But frankly, I think that added chloramines ie ammonia, is adding to the problem by putting 'extra' load on the bio filter. Im going to test for ammonia tonight in the barrel before the water change just to see how much ammonia is present. I guess I could also find out by looking up the regulations. Nevertheless, I'll be using a lot of Prime.

 

[Dave C]

There's no chloramine in my water, just chlorine.  It's about the only good thing about Winnipeg, our water is reasonably good for growout. pH is 7.4 conductivity is about 250ms.

Dave

 

[jts112278]

Hey Dave,

i was looking at your site and noticed that you sell sponge filters. I am setting up a new tank and would like try these, but for the life of me i can't figure out how they work. i know they use an airpump, but that is all i know. CAn you help me with this? Thanks

 

[Dave C]

You pop an airstone inside the pipe that connects to the filter so the airstone sits right in the middle of the sponge.  The air draws water up the pipe which draws water through the sponge.  This current turns over the contents of your tank through the sponge much the way an Aquaclear filter will turn the water over through the sponges in it.  So the sponge becomes your biological media.  You just clean them once a week in a bucket of tank water and that's it.  

Dave

 

[jts112278]

Is any other filter needed? Correct me if im wrong but the sponge would provide biological and mechanical filtertration?

 

[jts112278]

By the way Dave where did you get the Red Spotted Diamond from? They are great looking fish

 

[Dave C]

A sponge filter is purely for biological filtration.  I have no need for a mechanical filter in my Discus tanks.  I am the mechanical filter, when I do my daily water change.  It's much easier to siphon the tank bottom while changing water, and remove any crap down there then it is to clean an Aquaclear or canister filter.  And by siphoning daily the crap is gone daily whereas in a mechanical filter it sits there until you clean it, slowly dissolving and going back into your tank.  So NO, no other filtration is needed.  I run 3 Hydro III's in a 65g tank with 10 adult Discus and the tank is crystal clear.

The Red Spotted Diamonds came from Discus Hawaii.  The owner is Ray Kosaka, he has no website, his email address is discushi@pixi.com.

Dave

Dave

 

[RedTurquoise]

A little update!
The discus are slowly coming around. Sometimes they are shy, sometimes not. I measured the ammonia in the barrel and it registered at 1ppm. Im curious if 1ppm of ammonia is 1ppm of nitrite?

As for the Prime, I add enough to treat the barrel when Im filling the barrel and also just before filling the tank. Then I treat the whole tank with the recommended dosage. I received an e-mail from Seachem stating that the nitrite levels will still register even though they have been detoxicified (same as ammonia) however they are 'bonded' and harmless for 24 hours until the bio filter can take care of them.

Thanks Dave for your guidance. I have learned a lot and next time (which hopefully will be soon), I will know and do better. Next time, hopefully I will have an empty tank also. The only question is how do you prepare your bio filter for new fish? What do you do Dave, if you are going to be receiving a lot of new fish? Must be nice not to worry about chloramines!

 

[Dave C]

I've got tons of Hydro sponges running in all of my tanks and none are essential in the tanks with wet/dry filters.  So I just move a filter out and into a new tank and move it back when I don't need it anymore.  If I will be needing it permanently or for a long time I replace it with a new one in the tank with the wet/dry.  Right now I've got about 19 Hydro Sponges running.

Dave