Im soooo scared!

[RedTurquoise]

It seems that my discus have been frightened (because of my stupidity). What happen was this last weekend I came home a little later than I wanted to and still did a waterchange. The lights were already off and the discus sleeping. I turned on the lights for about 20mins before doing anything but they still were frightened. I guess I would be very grumpy too if someone would starting cleaning my house in the middle of the night. However, that in its self was not the only contributing factor. Another thing I learned was that the fish can 'hear' or better said 'feel' you coming by the vibrations through the floor and metal stand. The last couple of water changes I became lazy. I use the python connected in the kitchen and instead of closing the valve (the one at the opposite end that is connected to the faucet), I left it open, turned the faucet thingy to start filling up the tank. Then a sort of ran to the tank before the water started pouring out and started filling. Of course, the vibrations plus the sudden appearance in front of the tank caused mayhem. Never ever will I be trying to take 'shortcuts' again.

What ended up happening is yesterday when I attempted to do a waterchange again or even just walking into the room, the discus would be totally skittish. Like major even though my movements were slow and controlled. It was so bad that I thought that they would kill themselves. What I ended up doing was putting a towel over the front of the tank therefore they could not see anything outside the tank. That helped and I was able to do the water change. After a couple of hours, the discus had relaxed a little and started swimming around. And this morning was able to feed them without them 'dashing' for the corners.

Im thinking of leaving the towel in place for 3-5 days so they can get use to the vibrations again without them seeing anyone entering the room and freaking out. After that, I would slowly start removing the towel 1/4 section at a time.

I hope this experience will help others understand and learn from my mistakes.

Any other suggestions or tips?

 

[jts112278]

Hey Red-

Sounds like a good idea and i am curious to hear how it works out. I have the same problem with my brilliant blues and blue turks. i live in a second floor apartment so vibrations are a little bit of a problem. keep me updated and good luck!

 

[Avalon]

This is purely psychological for the fish. All fish have the instinct that there are predators about. If they are normally used to your controlled movements, and then they have the hell scared out of them, all that conditioning could go to pot, or at best, they will lose some of that conditioning. It's kind of like when you think you hear a burglar in your house, you will take extra precautions (checking/locking all doors & windows), and you will for the next several days until you've convinced yourself that there was never a burglar around the house in the first place. So, what you would need to do is recondition them. Food works very well for this purpose. I've done the same thing before myself. I've found that food is like a miracle cure. They need to associate your prescence with food. When you have them eating out of your hand again, you've done a great job. I've taken several learning and behavioral classes on this throughout my psych major studies, talked to my prof about conditioning animals, and low and behold it works!

 

[Backdraft Bagel]

good ole pavlov ... he always comes through when i need him.

 

[RedTurquoise]

Thanks Avalon! Unfortunatly, it is easier said than done.

Update!
After 3 days of having the towel hanging over the front of the tank, the discus are usually near the top when feeding time comes around. Although a little skittish yet especially when they "hear" anything, it is much better. Still doing water changes and they all crowd into the corner, they are a little more relaxed than before.

Another thing that might of contributed was the fact that chloramines were building up. Of course one does not think of it. I do a 33% water change every day using tap water unconditioned at the moment (until I get my pump) and I did not use any conditioner at all. For the last couple of times, I have been adding the conditioner and that has helped ease the stress.

 

[jts112278]

Thanks Red-

I liked your idea so much i am trying it out. Put a towel over the tank this morning. Ill let you know if it works!!!

 

[Dave C]

My initial guess was that it was something in the water that was causing them to act skittish.  Running around and turning lights off & on should only tick them off for moments.  I often do a water change on my growout tank 30 minutes after the tank lights are off.  They never seemed to care.  If there are chloramines in your tap water then that is surely the cause.  I would hesitate to put water into your tank straight from the tap even with a conditioner but I definitely wouldn't do it without.  Chloramines do not dissipate the way chlorine does so over time you're going to do damage to the fish.  Skip the towel and treat the water.  Ideally you should store the change water for 24 hours and treat it prior to using it.  I know that's not possible in every person's home but that is the ideal.

Dave

 

[RedTurquoise]

Thanks Dave! I was waiting for your response already!

At the moment I have 2 20G buckets filled with water for about a week now but Im waiting for my water pump to arrive. It should be anyday. At that time I will be using the 20G buckets to 'age' my water for at least 24 hours.

Btw-the heaters work great. One small thing though! I set both heaters to 85F. The one bucket is at 85-86 but the other is at 90F. Just thought I would let you know.

I must also say that Dave has some excellant prices on heaters/filters and other stuff. Check his website out. For example, 200W Ebo Jager heater, Big Al's* price is $39.99, Dave's price $29. Another is Hydro III filter, Big Al's* price is $18, Dave's price $8!

*Big Al's outlet that opened yesterday in Edmonton. Prices in Cdn.

 

[Dave C]

I'm not surprised that a 200w heater could overheat a 20g tank.  These things operate on a bimetallic strip that bends when it heats up and unbends when it cools.  The size of heater is supposed to be matched to the size of the body of water that it is heating.  The actual thermostat doesn't measure the temp of the water, it measures the temp of the air within the heater.  And when that air gets to a certain level above the set temp it shuts off.  There is some calculation of what that air temp is and is based on the temp of the water and assumes a tank size.  So the heater heats the water higher than you've set it to and then waits for  the temp to drop below what you've set it at before turning on again.  In a 20g tank the swing can be as high as you've noticed.  At least that's my opinion of why large heaters overheat small bodies of water.  It could also be a simple miscalibration.  I'd be interested to know what temp it maintained in a 60g tank.

Dave

 

[RedTurquoise]

Could be Dave! What I find interesting though is the fact that both heaters in two different 20G buckets set at the same dial setting heat differently. The one that is at 86F pretty much stays there at 86F. Im not sure that the temperature would increase by that much either though. But all in all, Im happy with them. As long as the temp is 86F and constant, that is fine be me. It just takes a little adjusting.

 

[Dave C]

Ron,

I was looking at your pictures.  It looks like you put your new fish into the same tank as your existing fish, but with a divider.  That's a pretty scary thing to do.  Everyone has a "lack of quarantine" nightmare story to share.  I'd hate for you to experience what I went through.  In the future I'd put new fish into their own tank for 4-6 weeks.  If you can't do that I wouldn't get new fish.  Both your new and old fish are currently at risk.  Hope everything works out fine for you.

Dave

 

[RedTurquoise]

I know Dave!  :-[ You are right! Of course, one realizes it too late. I didnt think that it would be a problem (and it isnt yet). I will not be doing it anymore. At the moment, I do not have a tank free. The quarintine tank that I do have has my ram in it that suddenly developed Hole the in Head so I was sol. This is actually my first go at some many 1.5" discus. Im already planning on getting a 65G. The divider I only put in for a couple of hours until the fry got use to the environment. Im currently also using salt (0.01%, or 1/2cup/30G). Thanks for being concerned. I appreciate it!  *celebratesmiley*

Just an update on the towel episode!
Well, finally I received my Rio 1700 submersible pump. Now I can start doing 50-75% water changes with aged water. Well, yesterday I cleaned the tank, scrubbing the sides then vaccuming the crap and drained 50% of the water. I connected the pump up and got ready to fill the tank but of course I could not see the water level therefore I removed the corner of the towel so only two inches of the front was exposed. I filled the tank. The pump worked very well. After that I starting cleaning up, my wife was also in the room and we were just talking. I happened to look at my tank and you would not beleive what I saw. It totally surpised me and my wife. The corner where I had removed the towel, 14 little discus were all lined up and peeking out. It was sooooo cute and I wish I had a camera a that moment. After the lights were out in the evening, I removed half of the towel. This morning I fed them and they were a little shy but when the food starting floating in the water, that won them over.

Jts,
How high is your tank off the floor? Is there a lot of traffic or movement? Sounds like my 20G. Currently I have it on a TV stand and its only 32" off the ground. I had the stand against the wall opposite the door and they seemed shy. A couple of weeks ago, I moved the stand to right beside the door and ever since, the discus are fine. Not as much movement from the doorway/hallway.

I also wanted to mention that I did notice white spots on one of the discus. Treating for 'ich' (and I mentioned that I dont have problems  : I hope not).

 

[RedTurquoise]

Aaa! And now I read dont treat for 'ich' just keep the tank clean and temp at 90F (which it is). Ich will go away by itself.
<sigh>

http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=2520

Sooooo much to learn, soooo little time!

 

[jts112278]

Hey Red-

Glad to hear that everyone is happy and doing well!!!

I am still trying to figure out my situation. I have a 45 gal garbage can that i age/treat/filter/heat my water in for 24 hours. I then do about a 75 percent water change dailty. Still have skittish fish. I really dont get it, but i am going to keep trying. The tank is in my bedroom about 36-40 inches off the ground.

They did receive a LARGE shock of some sort during shipping but that was a month ago. Any help would be appreciated. Dave C i would love to have you option as well.

Thanks guys

 

[RedTurquoise]

Well, to tell you the truth, my discus are still skittish. Maybe not as much but still. I have now made a point of reading in the same room. Seems to help a little but interestingly enough, they spook themselves too. Kind of funny. Id be watching them and all of a sudden, gone they are.

A point that my wife made, (she's pretty smart). The adult discus I have right next to the fry are not skittish at all even during water changes. Annoyed yes, but not skittish. That might have something to do with it, age! Almost like kids being scared of the dark. You grow out of it (well, hopefully).

Another point is the the adult discus I have had for about 2 years now, the fry only about 2-3 weeks.  ??? I think that 'shock' is hard to overcome and Im assuming that it will take time.

 

[jts112278]

Alright Red-

Some how we are going to make it threw this. I find that if i leave the tank light on when i sleep, after about five mintues they are swimming around happily. Fins high and mighty, colors come out and looking for food. As soon as i sit up WHAM! back into the corner!

These fish and going to drive me to drink *celebratesmiley*

 

[Dave C]

Ok, I just got 8 new Golden Pigeon S/S yesterday.  They are in a 30g tank, but only filled with 20g.  I will be doing about 60% water changes 3x a day.  So far they are very skittish and afraid to eat.  They come out when I'm not there but dart to the back when they see me.  This is very typical of new fish / new surroundings.  Here's what they looked like this morning...

That was after their first water change since arriving here.  They always hate the first 3 days or so.  Then they get used to my face and settle down.  But they still won't like it when I clean the glass.  I'll keep you updated on how they settle in and we can compare notes.

If your water that you are using for changes has chlorine, chloramine or is greatly different in pH or temperature then increasing water changes will not settle the fish.  I currently have the tank at 90ºF and will leave it at that until tomorrow.

Dave

 

[jts112278]

Wow, those are some good looking fish

 

[RedTurquoise]

O my goodness! I think Im in love!  :-* :-* :-* (Sorry, not you Dave! ;D)! Thank you for those beautiful discus! Thank so much! Where did you get them from?

Im starting to think that newly aquired discus take time to 'settle' down as you mentioned Dave! However, the first couple of days, the fry were fine until something scared them. O, well! Patience. I now age my water at least 24 hours, treat with Seachem Prime, heat the water to the tank. I have been doing 80% water changes daily now. They are not afraid to eat and in actual fact, my automatic feeder is acting wierd like changing the feeding times to wrong time. So the last 2 days, their feeding has not been regular. When they are hungry (not eaten for at least 8 hours), they will not be afraid and will wait at the top of the tank. That is only until they have eaten though. After that, they dart into the corners again.

Question Dave,
Why do you only have 20G in a 30G tank?

 

[Dave C]

I only put 20g in because that's enough water for fish this small and it allows me to use less water to do such large changes 3x a day.  If I filled it and did 60% water changes I'd use about 55g.  This way I only use about 35g.

Dave