Wot do you think of this? <Pic>
- Thread starter Ratbag
- Start date
If the pics were a little better you'd see that therewas food in there when I took them! They are fed Frozen B4 I leave for work, 4 times Tetra Prima on an autofeeder during the day and 2-3 times frozen/live in the evening! Is that enuff!!! ??? *thumbsupsmiley*
W/C's are 40% 2-3 times weekly. *thumbsup2* *thumbsdown2*
W/C's are 40% 2-3 times weekly. *thumbsup2* *thumbsdown2*
J
Very nice 
I agree with luv 110%
You are defently going to be needing a larger tank "even now" as discus require AT LEAST 10 gallons of water per fish. With daily waterchanges and lots of feeding.
I think by having 6 discus in a 30 gallon tank, you are going to stunt them plus they are going to start getting stressed out of little swiming area.
6 Discus should have a 75-120 Gallon tank
I agree with luv 110%
You are defently going to be needing a larger tank "even now" as discus require AT LEAST 10 gallons of water per fish. With daily waterchanges and lots of feeding.
I think by having 6 discus in a 30 gallon tank, you are going to stunt them plus they are going to start getting stressed out of little swiming area.
6 Discus should have a 75-120 Gallon tank
But in my defence officer, they're in a 30 UK Gallon tank, that's about 40 US Gallons, so I'm not so far short of the 60 US needed! They get water changes (as a minimum) three times weekly of about 40%, often more. I've only had them 2 months and all are showing signs of growth (Like you wouldn't believe!) with the biggest growing over an inch in 2 months!
J
I see your point,
But here in Canada, a 40"US" Gallon tank is only 35 Canadian gallons here.. therefore bud, your tank really is too small for those pretty little things.
I guess your ok for the moment, but I would highly recommend that you start shoping around for a larger tank
Keep em nice an pretty!
But here in Canada, a 40"US" Gallon tank is only 35 Canadian gallons here.. therefore bud, your tank really is too small for those pretty little things.
I guess your ok for the moment, but I would highly recommend that you start shoping around for a larger tank
Keep em nice an pretty!
Just my opinions here but...
You don't need 10g per fish, especially not when they're adolescents. I've currently got 40 2-3" Discus in a 55g tank. They are fed about 6x a day. BUT, they get a 70% waterchange 3x a day. The tank size almost becomes irrelevant if the water quality is maintained.
And water quality is going to become a huge problem in this tank. It's a 30g tank which is 36g US. The typical dimensions for a 36g tank is 36"x12"x20". Now if you assume you've got 1.5" of substrate in that tank, 3/4" of air space at the top, 1/4" glass you end up with dimensions of 35.5"x11.5"x17.5" which ends up being about 31g US or 26g UK. Then take into account the space taken up by the driftwood and plants and you can see the risk of overcrowding.
But even that's not the biggest risk, the main issue is the fact that you can't clean a planted tank the way you can a bare bottomed one. And I'm not suggesting that you remove anything from this tank, just explaining my opinion. With the feeding & water change schedule you've set up this tank will very rapidly degrade in terms of water quality. You just can't remove the uneaten food & crap as fast as you're adding it to the tank, even if you did daily water changes and you're only doing them 3x a week. I'm amazed at the volume of crap that accumulates in a bare tank with 6 Discus in it. All you have to do is take a look at the amount of food that you're putting into that tank on a daily basis, add it all up and plop it into a cup. That is how much uneaten food & crap that you must remove daily, every day, to keep up. Now take 2 days worth, hide some in the plants, under driftwood etc. and guess how long the tank will last before the water degrades and the fish get sick. It's a losing battle. If the tank was larger and the fish were adult you might be able to pull it off but a 30g tank is just too small to house substrate, plants & Discus. Just my opinion, hope I'm wrong and your tank is successful.
Dave
You don't need 10g per fish, especially not when they're adolescents. I've currently got 40 2-3" Discus in a 55g tank. They are fed about 6x a day. BUT, they get a 70% waterchange 3x a day. The tank size almost becomes irrelevant if the water quality is maintained.
And water quality is going to become a huge problem in this tank. It's a 30g tank which is 36g US. The typical dimensions for a 36g tank is 36"x12"x20". Now if you assume you've got 1.5" of substrate in that tank, 3/4" of air space at the top, 1/4" glass you end up with dimensions of 35.5"x11.5"x17.5" which ends up being about 31g US or 26g UK. Then take into account the space taken up by the driftwood and plants and you can see the risk of overcrowding.
But even that's not the biggest risk, the main issue is the fact that you can't clean a planted tank the way you can a bare bottomed one. And I'm not suggesting that you remove anything from this tank, just explaining my opinion. With the feeding & water change schedule you've set up this tank will very rapidly degrade in terms of water quality. You just can't remove the uneaten food & crap as fast as you're adding it to the tank, even if you did daily water changes and you're only doing them 3x a week. I'm amazed at the volume of crap that accumulates in a bare tank with 6 Discus in it. All you have to do is take a look at the amount of food that you're putting into that tank on a daily basis, add it all up and plop it into a cup. That is how much uneaten food & crap that you must remove daily, every day, to keep up. Now take 2 days worth, hide some in the plants, under driftwood etc. and guess how long the tank will last before the water degrades and the fish get sick. It's a losing battle. If the tank was larger and the fish were adult you might be able to pull it off but a 30g tank is just too small to house substrate, plants & Discus. Just my opinion, hope I'm wrong and your tank is successful.
Dave
I agree with you Dave. The 30G planted is a bit small however 1 small detail that needs to be pointed out. Nitrates is what hinders growth is what Im hearing a lot (in a cycled tank that is). In a planted tank, plants use nitrates therefore reducing it. For example in my 90G, I have 0 nitrates. However, I do not feed as much a day either, only once a day. But then I do not put juvs in my planted tank either only adults. The best grow out tank is the bb with lots of feeding and lots of wc.
Just a consideration! *crazysmiley*
Just a consideration! *crazysmiley*
Nah. Of course nitrates hinder growth but there are other factors that hinder growth as well. Death for instance is a huge inhibitor of growth. And putting small Discus in a tiny tank with gravel & plants, then feeding them a ton of food and changing water every 2nd day is a great way to kill them. And once dead they just won't grow, in my experience. I have never seen nitrates register in my tanks but I can affect the growth of my fish by altering the water changes. For instance I used to do daily changes on new, small Discus. They grew ok but not at any great rate. Then I decided that I would change that regime and I put a dozen 2" Discus into a 30g tank. I only filled it to 20g and changed about 70% 3x a day. I fed them as much as they'd eat, as often as they'd eat it. They grew to a 4" size in 7 weeks. There were no nitrates in the tank and there would have been no nitrates had I only changed the water once a day. The more water you change the more food you can put through the fish. This theory just doesn't work in a planted tank because the more food you feed the bigger problem you'll have.
In a planted tank you just can't expect to feed your fish multiple times a day with frozen food and expect the tank to succeed. There are too many places for the food to get trapped and once trapped it will slowly dissolve and become part of the organics of the water column. That puts overhead on the fish and will affect their growth & health. It may not measure as excessive nitrates but it's there nonetheless. And if you feed them less they won't grow as quickly. An understocked planted tank with adult Discus being fed once a day could be successful but only with diligence. Again, that's just my opinion.
Dave
In a planted tank you just can't expect to feed your fish multiple times a day with frozen food and expect the tank to succeed. There are too many places for the food to get trapped and once trapped it will slowly dissolve and become part of the organics of the water column. That puts overhead on the fish and will affect their growth & health. It may not measure as excessive nitrates but it's there nonetheless. And if you feed them less they won't grow as quickly. An understocked planted tank with adult Discus being fed once a day could be successful but only with diligence. Again, that's just my opinion.
Dave
Makes sense but if its not nitrates that hinder the growth, what then? I understand the fact that wasted food will accumalate, break down into ammonia-nitrites-nitrates but Im not clear on what else. What Im gathering is that there is other form of 'bacteria' maybe that also becomes present that affects the discus and can not be tested for? What Im unclear of is the difference of having a planted tank vs a bare bottom. I understand the bb is much easier to keep clean than one with substrate but Im not sure what effect it would have on the discus themselves if the cycle is in check (not including overcrowding).
Why? If the water parameters are fine, how will it kill them? In this case with the 30G and 5 discus I could see that because of overcrowding effects (especially with adults) but lets say a 90G with 5-7 discus. Wouldnt 12 2" discus in 20G be considered overcrowding also? Im looking at it in a mathimatical way (1.55"/gal(5 adults@4" in 30G) vs 0.8"/gal 12 juvs@2" in 20G)).
Why? If the water parameters are fine, how will it kill them? In this case with the 30G and 5 discus I could see that because of overcrowding effects (especially with adults) but lets say a 90G with 5-7 discus. Wouldnt 12 2" discus in 20G be considered overcrowding also? Im looking at it in a mathimatical way (1.55"/gal(5 adults@4" in 30G) vs 0.8"/gal 12 juvs@2" in 20G)).
It all depends on your assumptions I guess. I don't assume that ammonia, nitrite & nitrate are the only factors that can affect the health of the fish. Too many times I see people say that they tested for these 3 things and they were all fine so they declare their water "good". How can they tell from those tests alone? According to some the leading cause of poor health in aquarium fish is dissolved organic compounds. There is no test that I'm aware of that will measure this. When uneaten food & crap get trapped in the gravel & under wood it dissolves. I don't know if it registers in the form of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate but that's what your post suggests that you believe. Maybe you're right, maybe not. When my 180g tank was planted, in the final months there was lots of crap that was trapped. But all of my tests came out fine. My nitrates were &lt;10 and nitrite & ammonia were zero but when I tore it down there was tons of dissolving waste hidden all over. That tank got daily 10% water changes and the plants were growing great.
Here's the logic I'm using... I understand that it may not be scientific in nature, nor supported by written papers by those smarter then you and I, but this is the basis of my opinion and is supported by my experiences...
If you want small Discus to grow you must feed them a lot. If you feed them a lot they will either leave some food uneaten or they will eat it all and crap out a large % of it. If you don't remove the uneaten food or crap daily it will start to dissolve and become part of the water column. If you don't change water daily the overhead placed on the fish by the dissolved waste will negatively affect the fish. If you avoid this by feeding less you will have smaller fish. In a planted tank it is far more difficult to remove uneaten food & crap whether you vacuum daily or not.
Your last statement was regarding overcrowding... overcrowding is only an issue if the water is dirty. And dirty is a matter of definition. You're defining clean water as that which yields 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and low nitrates. I define clean water as that which contains low dissolved organic compounds. Since I can't measure the DOC I just replace the water with fresh water, often. I don't feel that the fish in a planted tank suffer from overcrowding, they suffer from the water being polluted. There could be a single Discus in that 30g tank and I'd bet it would turn into a runt. Feeding discus for maximum growth happens the best when they are in a large group. The fast eaters get the slow eaters going by simple competitiveness. When I have a Discus that's not eating I put it in a tank with Discus that have huge appetites and it brings it out.
The main difference in a planted tank & a bare bottomed tank is the ability in a bare bottomed tank to completely clean it. All of the glass can be wiped down, the water can be replaced almost 100% and there is nothing else in there that can harbor waste. You can't even come close to that kind of cleanliness in a planted tank. And this can be done daily in a bb tank. I've kept small & large Discus in a planted tank and in bb tanks. There is no comparison in the growth rates nor the occurrence of diseases.
Dave
Here's the logic I'm using... I understand that it may not be scientific in nature, nor supported by written papers by those smarter then you and I, but this is the basis of my opinion and is supported by my experiences...
If you want small Discus to grow you must feed them a lot. If you feed them a lot they will either leave some food uneaten or they will eat it all and crap out a large % of it. If you don't remove the uneaten food or crap daily it will start to dissolve and become part of the water column. If you don't change water daily the overhead placed on the fish by the dissolved waste will negatively affect the fish. If you avoid this by feeding less you will have smaller fish. In a planted tank it is far more difficult to remove uneaten food & crap whether you vacuum daily or not.
Your last statement was regarding overcrowding... overcrowding is only an issue if the water is dirty. And dirty is a matter of definition. You're defining clean water as that which yields 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and low nitrates. I define clean water as that which contains low dissolved organic compounds. Since I can't measure the DOC I just replace the water with fresh water, often. I don't feel that the fish in a planted tank suffer from overcrowding, they suffer from the water being polluted. There could be a single Discus in that 30g tank and I'd bet it would turn into a runt. Feeding discus for maximum growth happens the best when they are in a large group. The fast eaters get the slow eaters going by simple competitiveness. When I have a Discus that's not eating I put it in a tank with Discus that have huge appetites and it brings it out.
The main difference in a planted tank & a bare bottomed tank is the ability in a bare bottomed tank to completely clean it. All of the glass can be wiped down, the water can be replaced almost 100% and there is nothing else in there that can harbor waste. You can't even come close to that kind of cleanliness in a planted tank. And this can be done daily in a bb tank. I've kept small & large Discus in a planted tank and in bb tanks. There is no comparison in the growth rates nor the occurrence of diseases.
Dave
Ok, from reading a few 'research' articles that I found on the krib, I have found something very interesting.
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Plants/allelopathy.html
It is in point 5 that is mentions something about peat adding DOC into the water column and as far I as can understand, DOC is valuable in a planted tank (nutients). I have not found much yet about the negative effects of DOC but I will continue looking!
I just wanted to mention the peat part because many people use peat to lower ph.
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Plants/allelopathy.html
It is in point 5 that is mentions something about peat adding DOC into the water column and as far I as can understand, DOC is valuable in a planted tank (nutients). I have not found much yet about the negative effects of DOC but I will continue looking!
I just wanted to mention the peat part because many people use peat to lower ph.
