Starting a 10G nano built around clowns

[Rewd]

Starting a 20G nano built around clowns *EDIT*

Yep, another newbie 20g starter thread...

I've been keeping freshwater for years so I'm not a total newb, however I want to start a 20g nano. I know the bigger the better. The problem is my freshwater hobby has eliminated almost all the space I have and the absolute biggest I could go is 20 gallons. So knowing that, I want to build this small reef around Percula clowns.

I'm doing tons of research on set up and I'm thinking of going with live rock from liveaquaria.com. Does anyone have any experience with their LR? It's the best deal I've seen compared to local LFS's including shipping. What's a good amount for a 20gallon? Should I go with 20lbs or is more necessary...? I would like to make a nice reef formation for hiding places and such but I don't know how much would be necessary to achieve this. Also, money is a factor so I can't go nuts.

How about lighting? All of my research isn't yielding a whole lot of understanding on nano-reef lighting. Are the standard flourescent lights that come with a 20 gallon not sufficient to run a nano-reef? How about this as a replacement?

Lastly the fish: is it safe to keep two clowns in a 20 gallon as the "centerpiece" fish? If so, what other fish (non-inverts) could safely go in with them that are compatible and wouldn't overstock the tank?

I'm liking all of the following:
-Royal Gammas (Gorgeous fish!!!)
-Royal Dottybacks
-Yellowtail Damsels
-Firefish

What of these are safe to go in with two clowns without overstocking? is it possible to do 2 clowns and (*gulp*) one of each? I know that's highly improbable. Any suggestions on what combos are possible would be a great help.

EDIT: I'll make room for a bigger tank so all was changed to reflect starting a 20 gallon and NOT a ten gallon.

 

[Fishfreak]

WHne you say reef you do want coral right? If you do, money will be a factor. Reefs can be expensive. I am also on a budget and my reef so far has cost me over $300. Ouch! That lighting isn't good for coral. I have 110 watts on my 20 gal. I can keep soft coral and sps coral. You MIGHT be able to get away with low light softys. Yellow tail damsels can be very territorial. I would highly suggest you not to get them. I am also going to put in two percula clowns and a royal gramma. SInce you are just starting out I would recommend you to find a good dealer on ebay for your LR. They can run cheap. Down to only $2.00 a lb. That's where I have got my starter LR and so far so good for me.

I hope you get enough information from my post.

 

[Rewd]

I'm still learning the various terminology. For now, I'm looking at just the basic set up. Live rock, inverts and fish. in the future I'd be interested in having corals so would this light be a better investment for having corals in the future?

For stocking, would two perc clowns be safe with a royal gamma and maybe a firefish pair...? Or is that pushing it? If not, would there be enough room for say a "Kaudern's Cardinal" or is that wishful thinking? Keep in mind I wouldn't throw all these in there in one shot. This is the stock list I'd be working towards over time.

 

[Fishfreak]

That lighting would be much better. I am getting lighting just like that except mine is made by orbit. (just a better quality one with moon lights more expensive though) Yours is fine.
2 perc clowns would be fine with a royal gramma. I am not sure about the firefish pair. I never really looked and researched them. Yea I know you wouldn't put them in all at one time. OR at least I hope not. Have you looke at a clean up crew yet? You usually add them before any fish. I recommend you to get the legs also with the lights and just have open water.

 

[1979camaro]

yah, that second light would be much better for you

as far as fish, if you go for the two percs then i would reccomend only one more small fish (either the gramma or a filefish). stocking density needs to be much lower in SW than freshwater. For example, in my 55g I only have 8 fish

but, before you get to fish, what sort of skimmer (if any) do you plan to use? how about water movement?

the liveaquaria live rock is good in my opinion, but you may want to be able to hand pick your own at the LFS (i know it will cost a bit more) on such a small tank because you will not have a lot of opportunity to adjust

also, you might consider a 20g long rather than a standard 20. they are much easier to light

 

[S.Reef]

I would say limit it to 4 small ish. Either the clownfish, and a firefish, and a damsel or some other combination, but no more then 4 fish.

In my 20gallon I had a Percula clown, a Royal dottyback, a Bangaii cardinal, and a flame angel.

 

[Rewd]

Thanks for the help everyone!! Salt water is so complicated yet so simple at the same time.

Anyway, I like your stocking suggestion, S.Reef. You think maybe the two clowns, a royal gamma and possibly one firefish would be safe?

but, before you get to fish, what sort of skimmer (if any) do you plan to use? how about water movement?

I wasn't planning on a skimmer. From what I understand they aren't necessary on nano-reefs. Is that true? Maybe I'll leave it out just for the short term but maybe in the future pick one up. Money is a limiting factor especially since I have large FW tanks to maintain at the same time.

For water movement I was planning to go with two Penguin 660 powerheads. 170gph each so around 17x turnover rate if my calculations are correct. That seems like an awful lot now that I look at it. How much is necessary in a small tank?

Is there any other form of mechanical filtration for SW tanks besides protein skimmers? I was thinking of just using an old HOB filter with floss but no media... but now I read that can lead to nitrite (ate?) increases.

What I've planned so far:
-20 Gallon Tank (Long or high.. haven't decided yet. Space will dictate)
-25 pounds of live rock
-2x Pengiun 660 power heads
-Ebo Jager 100w heater
-130w Coralife Aqualight CF hood, 1x Actinic and 1x 10,000K

To house:
-Two Perc Clowns
-One Royal Gramma
-One Firefish (?)
-Inverts will come before fish but I haven't done much research on them yet.

I need a little advice on substrates too. I'm not going with live sand because it seems like a tiny bit of a scam to me (no offense to anyone who uses it and believes in it). I do love sand though (all of my FW tanks are sand-bottom) but for a SW tank I'd like a white sand. Is there any particular brand that's good? I use simple children's play sand (much cheaper!!) in my FW tanks but I don't remember seeing any at the hardware store that were white.

 

[S.Reef]

Personally I think it should be alright. There may be some people who disagree, but I have had success with 4 fish in a 20 gallon.

Caribsea makes some very nice substrates...you could check out drs.fosterandsmith for a lot of ideas.

 

[1979camaro]

i would be one who might disagree...i would stick to three fish max in a 20g...but im notorious around here for understocking

 

[Fishfreak]

Yes, I use caribsea and I love it.

 

[Rewd]

Nothing wrong with understocking.. keeps the fish healthy.

However, do you think 4 fish are doable if you're absolutely religious with your tank maintenance (which I am)?

I'm researching inverts now. I know I want a cleaner shrimp but I've seen them for sale at local LFSs for 29.99 What are some recommended hermit crabs, snails, etc. for a new tank?

And for future reference, could anyone recommend some coral/mushroom species that would be good for this kind of setup...

 

[Fishfreak]

Zoanthids They are the best. As for clean up crew. SOme turbo snails, nassarius snails, Scarlet reefe hermits

 

[1979camaro]

4 is doable, personally i wouldn't do it, but many people do and with great success

turbos get too big for your nano, nassarius would be a good choice, also cerith. any of the little reef hermits will do. blue legged, left handed (or zebra), red, scarlet...just make sure they are the tiny ones. liveaquaria.com has some pics you could look at which could be useful for you when you go to the lfs to shop. cleaners will probably run you between $15 and $30 so yah, thats kind of the story on that

yah, zoanthids and mushrooms are the best starter corals in my opinon, most leathers will outgrow your system, but they would do well also. might even be able to get a few LPS down the road

 

[wayne]

For a start you could actually keep an awful lot of stuff under 2*36, let alone the stronger lighting. It depends on how deep your water is... 20 long or 20 high. Frankly in a 20 long, there isn't much you COULDN'T keep except some of the shallower water sps will likely drop some colour.
I would start with zo's and mushrooms, and take it from there. Learn with these first. Maybe also some other easy polyps like braireum (?).
29.99 is extortionate for a cleaner shrimp - I paid less for my blood shrimp

If you're not going to run a skimmer, and it is reasonable not too, I would get comfortable withthe idea of a weekly large water change. Five gallons once or twice a week will keep you in admirable shape, and totally remove the need for additional suplements

 

[Rewd]

With four fish: two percs, one royal gamma and a firefish what would you all recommend as a staple food for them to be fed on a daily basis? I use Tetramin flakes for my freshwater tanks fed twice daily but many times a week that's varried with frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp. They also get freeze dried daphnia, brine shrimp, bloodworms and tubifex worms. In the warmer months they also get live mosquito larvae and blackworms. Is any of this useful for SW fish?

Is Instant Ocean a good brand to use for a salt mix?

wayne, I'm probably going to go with a 20 gallon high for space reasons. With the 130w light how will that affect what corals/shrooms I can get?

Comaro, thanks for the liveaquaria suggestion. Those hermits are awesome!! Are they similar to the hermits you would purchase in a souvenir store on like a boardwalk? Not that I would do that for my SW tank... just curious.

Thanks for all the help you guys are great!!

 

[wayne]

I persoanlly use flake most of the time, except i have a big pot and mix in several brands of reliable flake + some cyclopeeze. That works well. I als feed frozen mysis and sea food once or twice a week. Brine is pretty useless , and I have fed bloodworm, but only to problem feeders to keep them alive as it's also fairly empty.

Note that if you feed frozen defrost and pick the food out rather than dumping in the packwater with all the c!!p in there. That's how delicate/fussy a 20 will be, that will be enough to cause overfeeding

I use IO and I think its more than OK. I do bufer up kH though. I mix it up at least 24 hours before in a bucket with a powerhead and a heater.

Yes. Light strengh/penetration is principally affected by water depth. None the less 130 watts is still quite a bit despite what some might tell you. Note that actinic bulbs are not as useful as daylights, i would likely not use an actinic inthat fixture, maybe 2 10K's or a mixture.

 

[Fishfreak]

I am getting the 130 watt and I have a high also. Everyone siad I can keep softys and most lps corals.

 

[1979camaro]

nope, those are not the same hermits you buy on the boardwalk