new here, yep im a piranha freak

catfishmike

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Oct 22, 2002
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Sin City, again...
#41
really which editor?i love tfh and if i though i could read some more of what they come up with i would be all over it.thats where i got most of my pirhana knowledge.i still say pirhanas aren't bad,but often kept incorrectly.it's no wonder people have some misconceptions when all you have ever seen is a lone pirhana being fed hotdogs or some other god awful scenario(that one i have seen personaly)
 

Jul 16, 2003
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#42
Originally posted by catfishmike
really which editor?i love tfh and if i though i could read some more of what they come up with i would be all over it.thats where i got most of my pirhana knowledge.i still say pirhanas aren't bad,but often kept incorrectly.it's no wonder people have some misconceptions when all you have ever seen is a lone pirhana being fed hotdogs or some other god awful scenario(that one i have seen personaly)
These are the exact reason why the site exists...to attempt to prevent these things from happening.

Brian Scott of TFH.
Frank Magallanes of OPEFE moderates our piranha science forums.
 

catfishmike

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Oct 22, 2002
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Sin City, again...
#43
cool,thanks Grosse Gurke.
yea,now i got to visit more often.
my favorite tank and the sharkreef a local public aquarium of sorts(it's in a casino,does that count as public?)is the pirhana tank.it's dimly lit with live terrestrial plants and fake plants growing on the surface and on the sides,in the center is a big log i think(it's been a while)but overall the the tank is a great example of how pirhana are when kept properly.the fish move but they don't jerk or dart,they co-exisit with black skirt tetras even.my point being though is that,this tank was well thought out and makes the fish comfortable and interesting to watch.
 

TaffyFish

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Jan 30, 2003
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#44
I've seen large piranha tanks at the London Aquarium and the Blue Reef aquarium in Portsmouth - these are brilliant and awesome (overused word but meaningful in this context) exhibits. Looking at the near motionless school, you are aware of their potential not least from the chunks they've taken out of each other! Aside question - I have seen a lot of bites towards the back of the dorsal, is this the result of a mating or dominance behaviour?

Thanks all for the informative responses guys, very much the kind of thing I was hoping to read.

Can I ask a few further questions about tank behaviour? Often observed motionless, even in very large exhibition tanks, why are piranha so still in the water? Does this reflect natural behaviour or is it a symptom of their confinement? Do they position themselves in schools such that you can make out relative dominance, eg are all the juvies in the centre and subadult males at the outside?
 

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Jul 16, 2003
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#45
Originally posted by TaffyFish
I've seen large piranha tanks at the London Aquarium and the Blue Reef aquarium in Portsmouth - these are brilliant and awesome (overused word but meaningful in this context) exhibits. Looking at the near motionless school, you are aware of their potential not least from the chunks they've taken out of each other! Aside question - I have seen a lot of bites towards the back of the dorsal, is this the result of a mating or dominance behaviour?
I believe what you are describing is more dominance behavior. Most of the time when my pygos would fish over territory and some actual flesh was taken, it was on the upper back of the fish, either before or after the dorsal fin. I think this is what you mean...not totally sure. Damage received in mating is usually to the sides of the fish and can run the entire length of the fish. This is mainly the removal of scales with some flesh smaller wounds.

Can I ask a few further questions about tank behaviour? Often observed motionless, even in very large exhibition tanks, why are piranha so still in the water? Does this reflect natural behaviour or is it a symptom of their confinement? Do they position themselves in schools such that you can make out relative dominance, eg are all the juvies in the centre and subadult males at the outside?
IME Pygocentrus act much differently in the aquarium than Serrasalmus.
My view on pygo shoals. I have had pygo shaols that would not really move, and others that were very active....a large powerhead can help wake them up. Most piranhas love the current and will be much more active if you give them some. I think the way they act in tanks is just that...how they act in tanks. They are preditor and prey in the wild and do bring that mentality to the tank...however now they cant run from the preditor (you) which I believe explains why their behavior is very skittish when first introduced in a tank....this does however slowly reduce over time.
Serrasalmus act very different. The ones I have had and currently keep are not very skittish. I have a little irritans that will rush the glass when my dog walks bye. Now my dog is a 140 pound bullmastif so I think the 5" irritans is more blowing smoke than really trying anything, but who knows. My gery shoal, once comfortable in their tank, are very active and will swim for hours back all over the tank. But the brandtii I have dont do much but stare at me....so I believe there is an aspect of individuality these fish posess.
When talking about a shoal and piranhas, it is not like some may think...they really cohabitate the tank, not really shoal. Most are very territorial...the cause for most injuries you will see. When they are shoaling the dominant fish is usually in front, but I have not noticed any relative order after this. I have noticed all the fish facing outward when, however juvinile fish stand a very high chance of being killed if placed in a tank of adult or even sub-adult fish so this is not recommended.

This is all based on my experience with my tanks...I cant really talk for other keepers and have never observed these fish in the wild.
 

TaffyFish

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Jan 30, 2003
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#46
so are there different genus of piranha reflecting the differing natural habitat? I would imagine the longer body shape is better suited to faster flowing rivers whilst the more compact is adapted to slower waters?

from your description of the irritans behaviour it sounds like he thinks his territory extends beyond the limits of the tank - do you have any idea how much territory they occupy in the wild and does this give you a basis for understanding the tank sizes required for captivity? even if you haven't observed them in the wild I assume you have access to research? does the piranha world have an Ad Konings?

are there accepted male to female stocking ratios, and at what relative size can juveniles safely co-exist with adults?

I've seen serra's kept at an lfs in rows of barrack tanks barely big enough for them to turn around in. would you have to keep such a fish on its own in a 55 or 75 and would it then swim around the tank or remain motionless - I guess I mean what's the chicken and the egg here - the fish's limited movement or the constraint of the tank size?
 

TIGER9

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Oct 22, 2002
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#47
there are some piranha which prefer faster waters than others, but for the most part all piranha are very good river-runners. which should be expected considering amazonian waterways are constantly changing year to year, season to season, n to a point day to day. this of course makes piranha extremely adaptable.
there are 3 different types of water in the amazon - black water, white water, and a mix of the two. then it breaks down into sub-categories, waters that have more black water to whitewater ratios. but thats not one of my strong suits. anyway, in these different water types there are piranha that prefer black water, some white water, n some prefer the mix. which leads to alot of color variations within the same genres. which is the reason that piranha classification is so difficult. u see a weird lookin piranha- is it a new species? or a simple variation of one thats already identified.
hope thats what ur lookin for.:D
 

Jul 16, 2003
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#48
Originally posted by TaffyFish
so are there different genus of piranha reflecting the differing natural habitat? I would imagine the longer body shape is better suited to faster flowing rivers whilst the more compact is adapted to slower waters?
Well, both genus occupy the same water...Pygocentrus Piraya and Serrasalmus Brandtii are found in the same river...but have totally different body shapes. Same goes with every other river system that contains Pygocentrus...there will be some species of Serrasalmus which is typically more compressus than Pygos. That being said, you are correct that in the faster moving waters the piranha species that occupy them are typically serrasalmus and much more compressus. S. Elongatus is a very streamlined piranha, much more elongated than any other species of piranha, and they are found in 2 types of water...fast moving river, and lake water....go figure....lol

from your description of the irritans behaviour it sounds like he thinks his territory extends beyond the limits of the tank - do you have any idea how much territory they occupy in the wild and does this give you a basis for understanding the tank sizes required for captivity? even if you haven't observed them in the wild I assume you have access to research? does the piranha world have an Ad Konings?
S. Irritans is a nasty little fin nipper. I do not know how much territory the occupy in the wild, there is not a lot of information on this species. They are a very small species though..and very fast.
As far as research, you would be suprised at the lack of research done on the piranha species. It is in its infancy so it is very hard to find any creditable information...another reason piranha-fury is so popular because for the hobbiest, it is by far the most accurate information you can find. Having Frank Magallanes of OPEFE is an amazing resoruce for information because he is in contact with the scientists in the field. I dont know what Ad Konings is ;)

are there accepted male to female stocking ratios, and at what relative size can juveniles safely co-exist with adults?
there are only a few species of piranhas that are sexually dimorphic....so you really dont now if you have males or females unless they breed. For the most part, you dont want to have a large spred in size with smaller piranhas. You have a much greater chance of loosing fish that are under 5". Smaller fish are much more apt to take out a roommate than larger fish. This is also dictated to the personality of the individual fish. I had some 11-12" terns that were fine with a 6" red...but this red is a very aggressive fish...I dont think it would be wise with a more docile fish. It is always better to try to get fish around the same size when creating a shoal because aggression is always heightned when they are establishing a pecking order in the tank.

I've seen serra's kept at an lfs in rows of barrack tanks barely big enough for them to turn around in. would you have to keep such a fish on its own in a 55 or 75 and would it then swim around the tank or remain motionless - I guess I mean what's the chicken and the egg here - the fish's limited movement or the constraint of the tank size?
Once again you are dealing with the individual fish. Serrasalmus are almost always kept as a single species. S. Geryi, S. Spilo and S. Maculatus are basically the only Serrasalmus that can be kept in a shoal, but many people have lost fish attempting this...and when dealing with S. Geryi and paying 150.00 for a single 4" fish...it is a risk. I have had my geryi shoal together for over a year without loosing a fish, but I have had some pretty bad injuries that required me removing the injured fish to heal in a seperate tank...but nothing that has not healed *knocks on wood*
When you get a serrasalmus, for the most part you are getting a show fish. They will almost never be as active as a shoal of fish. I have one fish in a 120 gallon tank and I can watch him for hours and find him amazing...but that is me and not for everyone. Piranhaman has a 7" brandtii in a 75 gallon tank and it is a great tank imo...it is all up to the individual fish keeper and his or her interests.
 

TaffyFish

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Jan 30, 2003
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#49
this is so cool, I've got my personal bank of piranha experts!

a while back someone mentioned that they make good parents, same with many cichlids but I can't believe that these guys are as easy to breed as my Tanganyikans are proving to be. If they were easy there would be young fish on offer all over the place, but no, prices are high which can only mean demand exceeds supply.

are any of you actually breeding and is a breeding set up, like with many other fish, a specialist operation completely different to just keeping them?
 

Jul 16, 2003
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#50
There are a lot of people breeding redbellies....but the fry needs to be removed immediatly or they will not be allowed to grow, at least this is my understanding. There are some that are breeding S. Spilo and S. Maculatus, but that is pretty much all that the average keeper is doing.
Others have been bred, but it is much more rare and there are many things that need to be done to facilitate breeding...like simulating the wed/dry seasons and the waters where they are located.
I am not breeding any of my fish but have giving thought to trying my geryi because it has never been done.
 

TIGER9

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Oct 22, 2002
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#51
red bellies seem easy to breed when compared to any of the other piranha species. but its still alot harder than breeding most fish. breeding in a tank smaller than a 125g. is extremely rare. i cant think of anyone who has had reds breed without TRYING to breed them. u have to make some very exact moves to get these guys to do their thing.
i know there was a member on p-fish.net that had p. caribe breed and spawn but the eggs never hatched. i know there are some spilo breeders but maculatus breeding is new to me. as GG said thats bout it. then again most other types of piranha are very expensive n breeding can be very risky. so most people wont even try it. cant say i blame them, id be ticked if i lost a red belly in a breeding attempt(yea, im cheap too:p ) let alone a spilo or for the love of god a piraya:eek:
 

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#53
Originally posted by TIGER9
!HOLY HELL!,(falls to one knee) i did not know i was in the presence of piranha royalty. forgive me my leige:D . now that ive been put in line, yall better believe what this man says when it comes to piranha. he speaks only truth.*celebrate

LOL :D

When it comes to everything else... I speak with jaw bone of an ***. *laughingc
 

Feb 14, 2004
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#54
TaffyFish- Piranha may not be the "prettiest" freshwater fish to hit the market. but i must say that your observations.......well, Suck! There are alot more to piranha than you see. Yes, watching them eat is very....VERY entertaining. but they are very stable, strong, and in theyre own way, beautiful fish. Alot of my obsession with piranha goes have to do with them being extreme killers, bu its more than that. Loo how adapt they are to their surroundings. they are very smart, and very good pedators, they are built for life in te wild. And thats more than most other marketed fish can say.
 

Jul 16, 2003
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#58
I find it more of a stance against ignorance. But in life you always find people that are unwilling to accept others for whatever reason. I dont think the head butting was about piranhas...they are just a fish, for me it was about the negative attitude some have toward fish keepers that dont keep the same fish they do.
 

TaffyFish

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Jan 30, 2003
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#59
There are, quite evidently, some fish keepers who carry a lot of baggage around with them and appear to look for negativity behind any question.

You play a dangerous game when you consider yourself and your small group as somehow superior, with the need to make a stand against the “ignorance” of others. Did you ever hear of the Branch Davidians?
 

Jul 16, 2003
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#60
Originally posted by TaffyFish

You play a dangerous game when you consider yourself and your small group as somehow superior, with the need to make a stand against the “ignorance” of others. Did you ever hear of the Branch Davidians?
No games. I dont feel I am a superior fish keeper at all and I am not sure where you came up with that, but when it comes to piranhas there is plenty of ignorance and I do feel I know more than most. All ignorant means is "lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified"...in this case piranhas. I just started a salt tank and am very ignorant when it comes to this section of the hobby, but I am doing everything I can to learn about the different fish before I attempt to keep them.
If there has been a superior attitude displayed anywhere in this thread it has not been by myself...look closer to home TaffyFish. If anything, I feel I have made every effort to act civil and attempt to explain why I find these fish worthy of keeping without talking down to the people posting in this thread.
The cult referance is very funny though.
*laughingc