Brackish Cycling

[madhippoz]

Ok, have a few questions here.

I have a new 77gal tank that is the proposed new home for my 3 Colombians. I started off doing the fishless cycle. I goofed at the start and ended up adding WAY to much ammonia, so much so that it took 2 50% water changes to get it down even to like 3ppm. At the week and a half point, talking with Adamj, I realized I wasn't actually making my tank Brackish (the old "Aquarium Salt" in the milk carton doesn't make water Brackish? goof). Anyway, I added some salt, enough to get my salinity up to 1.012ppt. A few days I added 5 Knight Gobies to help with the cycle. During this time my Ammonia dropped down to approx. 1ppm. I don't know if it was the salt, or the Gobies that prompted this drop. However, another week and a half later, it is still sitting there at 1ppm. I did a 20% water change on Friday, which seemed to hardly lower my Ammonia at all. As of this morning, still at 1ppm for Ammonia, and 0 Nitrites. I've got red algae spots growing on the glass, the Gobies seem perfectly fine. My question is can the Marine salt perhaps be stalling my cycle? Any suggestions on what might be happening, or am I just being impatient at this point?

Oh, newsflash via MSN. Adamj found some info stating that bacteria growth is decidely slower in salt water. The reproductive rate for bacteria in fresh water is about every 8 hours, in salt water, its more like every 24 hours. However, as catfishmike has said before(lazy fishkeeper syndrome), the toxins are less toxic in salt water than they are in fresh, so that's why its not as hard on my Gobies. We're going to try 15-20% water changes every other day to get our Salinity down and see if that kicks our cycles into gear. Adamj's is stuck on the Nitrites the same way mine is stuck on Ammonia. We'll keep yah posted.

 

[adamj]

i've only done one water change. Ill be doing on today, i tested nitrites yesterday, they went down a pinch. but nothing too noticible.so far fish are fine. eating VERY well

 

[madhippoz]

I've done 2 water changes since, missed my last one as I was away this past weekend. Ammonia dropped hardly a tick both times. However, this weekend over the course of 3 days it dropped a noticable amount. Hanging around .5ppm. However, I'm noticing a large amount of reddish brown algae on my signiture rock in the middle of my aquarium. Previously it was only on my glass. Still not even a drop of Nitrites either.

What's everyone's opinion on that reddish brown algae. I was just leaving it, waiting until the tank cycled before scrapping it off. Would it hurt the cycle at all to scrap that algae off my glass and now that big rock?

 

[adamj]

welp, heres my update...
i tested water today... ammonia and nitrite were high and the fish werent eating as much as normal. I thought this very strange, considering the stress their under i had to move them to a new tank, at least until the tank is cycled. i did about a 45% change, and added some water from another established tank. they seem to be fine and have their new territories staked out in a the new tank their in. the bacteria growth isnt going anywhere, and i thought its possible theres different types of nintrifying bacteria for brackish/saltwater tanks... could my theory be correct? If so, would adding established marine water to this tank help? There isnt as much bacteria in the tank as i originaly though to begin with, a simple stir up of the substrate makes the ammonia jump many ppm. not the nitrites however. It appears the growth of current bacteria is severely retarded. I still can remove the salt eventualy and have it cycle as fresh water. However, considering the nature of these fish, its important for them to have brackish water. Any ideas or suggestions beyond that of periodic water changes? Or any opinions on adding water from an established marine tank?

thanks

 

[adamj]

i didnt realize it until now but even if we add salt after a fresh cycle, i believe it will still stunt the growth of the bacteria cultures, they willlive for the time being but a population of anything that doesnt reproduce eventualy dies out. My theory is that its possible there is a salt tolerant marine bacteria that we could possibly use. If we can get a sample of an established marine tanks water, we could add it to our brackish systems and they'll grow... we'll see...

 

[adamj]

ok, well i just got off the phone with a brackish expert. My hypothesis was wrong, still cool to know however> As i now understand it, there are slight differences in the bacteria between marine and fresh tanks, but not that much of a difference. I have undergravel plates in my tank, i was planning on getting uptake tubes later on, well, yesterday i had really stird the substrate up and tested water after i did that, the ammonia and nitrites were through the roof, sooo i have a dead water in the tank. simply all the waste seeps to the bottom, and rests underneath the ugf plate. So if i increase filtration and get that water moving underneath the filter plate, it should continute its cycle pattern. the guy i spoke to thought my salinity might be too high as well, but he said that salt didnt interfier with bacterial growth, thats something still undecided with me however, i've heard otherwise. I think now my salinity is lower and ill see how that works but i wont remove it to the point of zero salt. Hippoz - do you have ugf plates in your tank at all? i didnt think you did, in that case i was suggested to increase filtration and possibly have two hob filters and only change one at a time to keep a healthy large bacteria culture going. Considering the size of your tank, you might have some dead water as well. Considering we have the same problem, it just might work... Ill be getting my uptake tubes asap, and ill let you know how it works out... laterz

 

[madhippoz]

No UGF plates here, but my tank is very deep, 77gal, and even though my Eheim Pro II 2026 kicks ass, even it has trouble getting any strong current to the very bottom of the tank. I'm certain I have deadspots around the tank. And I have a very deep gravel bed, so there are possibilities for waste and/or Ammonia to be settling down there. I'll stir up my gravel and see if I get the same effect, an increase of Ammonia. I'm also going to start trying to assemble an Under Gravel Jet to help with lower level tank circulation. It's described here in this article:

http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php

As you mentioned before though Adamj because my tank is quite large, that is probably just compounding the problems I'm having with my cycle.

 

[adamj]

let me know how your stir up test goes...

 

[toodles]

I figured you would be more likely to see this here......

The debate about nitrifying bacteria rages on and on.....some people say that freshwater and marine bacteria are completely different and there are no overlaping bacteria. Some claim that they are one and the same species, able to switch from fresh to brackish to salt. Others say that the majority of the bacteria found, are either fresh or marine or brackish, but that there is a minority of bacteria that can withstand all the ranges. Me, well, I'm not a biologist, and I'm certainly not a micro-biologist, but the last option seems to make the most sense. (at least to me)
Regardless of what is actually true, if you keep switching back and forth from brackish to fresh, whatever bacteria are growing are going to get, at least shocked if not outright killed. Best to keep your levels steady and give it time.

If it was me, I would lose the UG....they trap too much detrius and you will have higher nitrates using one. Not only that, but it can be a pain to constantly clean the gravel so it doesn't clog, plus you have to occasionally put airline tubing down the uplift tubes to try and siphon out the gunk underneath there.
If you want good water movement why not simply buy a powerhead or two and aim them at the substrate?

 

[adamj]

i have some spare powerheads, and i plan on jetting them into the ugf plates backwards with sponges on em....

 

[adamj]

I've got a few plans in the works. I got a replacement ugf lift tube last night, turns out the tube was too big.. FECK! hehe anyway, i just stuck a powerhead on the top of it and anchored it in the corner over a ugf uptake tube hole. it seems to be working ok so far. I found i had a small water pump in my collection-o-aquarium junk. Im thinking about mounting that in the bottom of the tank jetting water into the substrate. ill let everyone know how that turns out.

 

[beaver8888]

ya sounds like you got the idea about everything i just would be carefull about the testing water and shit cause i would do it alot more with brackish water then in freshwater and would probably depend on the fish you got in it to ^.^

 

[toodles]

Sounds like you have things under control! What kind of fish are you going to keep in there?

You got a collection-o-aquarium stuff too?

I never knew I could accumulate so much junk.....I've got a huge box filled with old tubing, pumps, stupid moving things like a sunken ship, a flying saucer that scares the crap out of the fish, treasure chest (hey, when my kid was younger he liked that kind of thing.....although I must admit, the treasure chest is being put to use in the betta tank....shhhhh.....don't tell anyone, okay?), dividers, sponges, scrapers, etc....and that's just the one box! Got 3 more just filled with books and magazines. Then there are the spare tanks sitting in the little room we use as storage.......not to mention the large bag filled with plastic plants I no longer use. And the driftwood. And the slate. And the backgrounds....ah crap. I got too much stuff!

 

[adamj]

haha! you should have a rummage sale toodles!

i already have the fish, three knight gobies and one candy striped goby. They would still be in the tank but i went ahead and removed them until i got the dead water situation worked out.

beaver - yes i know

i tested water today, nitrites are down a considerable amount, almost zero. ill test ammonia and nitrite later tonight, if lucky, by tomorrow the fish will be back.

 

[toodles]

Ahhh.....a goby fan! Knight gobies are very cool fish, but one that you don't see alot of around here.
Forgive me if I have forgotten, but do you have any saltwater tanks? The reason I'm asking is because of the cold saltwater catalina gobies....now there's a gorgeous fish!!!

 

[adamj]

nope, no saltwater. not yet at least

my brackish tank will be a good transition into saltwater.i have my salinity high enough to be damn near close saltwater, so im thinking about getting some type of saltwater fish that can dig lower salinity.

 

[madhippoz]

I'm back from my weekend hiatus. Anyway catching up . What you said makes sense Toodles, do you find then that most people need to start cycling a Brackish tank, with bacteria from another Brackish, or saltwater tank? Can you seed a Brackish tank very well with Freshwater bacteria, or does anyone really know for certain? Anyway, mine and Adamj's plan initially was just to reduce the salinity of our water and hope it might cycle as freshwater, then very very slowly during water changes bring the salinity back up. But now I'm not sure if it matters. Mine for the record is stuck hard at .5 ppm Ammonia and won't move. I haven't even gotten to the Nitrite part of the cycle yet. Ammonia dropped, and now just sits there. I've moved the outtake of my Eheim filter to blow down across the gravel, and hopefully can get a powerhead under there as well to help with some more water circulation. I have 5 Knight Goby's in mine which seem to be doing just fine for the moment. At this point I guess I'll just wait it out and see, my tank is a 77gal by the way. Currently I'm in the process of cycling a 34gal tank. So if it finishes first I'll move my 3 Colombian's into that tank temporarily until the 77gal is done, sometime like a year from now

 

[jinx]

I've kept brackish waters aquariums for about 6 years so far and the way I start them out is to get some brackish fish (mollies usually) place them in freshwater and cycle the tank.... After the whole cycle period of freshwater I'd slow add instant ocean, about 3 cups a week (60 gallon tank) every 3rd week doing a 20% water change taking note of salinity and putting the same satly water back not changing the salinity too much. I'd get the water to about 1.008 and start adding more brackish fish. Oh BTW the mollies usually end up as food for the inhabitants of the aquarium. I'd follow this till I get the salinity to about 1.017. Kinda high for most people but I will explain later. This slow method allows the bacteria to adjust/die off/mutate/grow into the correct type needed for brackish. I, like you guys have heard it all marine bacteria and fresh are different, they mutate, they turn into Xmen bacteria... etc.. For whatever reason no one seem to know the real answer so I had to go blind in the dark. So just like fish I figured that the bacteria themself need to acclamaid to the salt. Works perfect so far no problems. Anyhow I know you thing 1.017 is kinda high but usually I end up having brackish and marine fish in the same tank. Ever seen an plants and reef? It's a kewl effect, but that balance is super difficult to keep and expensive!! But if you're just shooting for brackish only then you have it easy. It;s very easy to kill off any bugs that get into your systems. Just either lower or raise the salinity and that's that... Note that the system has to be stable before you do that raise and lower technique. Anyhow good luck.........*celebrate

 

[adamj]

jinx - thanks for your wisdom man. its very much appreciated. Im glad to announce that my brackish tank has cycled. It appears that i simply had dead water, maybe the same with hippoz too aye?

time to stock! WOO HOO!haha

 

[madhippoz]

Mine doesn't appear to be a dead water issue. I've got my spray bar from my eheim lowered pointing down, my big airstone going 24/7, and for about the last week a powerhead blowing a strong current along the gravel. I've got tons of circulation, can tell by watching my Knight Goby's, which love it by the way. I've had a few minute drops from my steady Ammonia of around .8 - 1ppm. I add in a capful more Ammonia to keep the level up, and it drops again a little. So it is being consumed, but I'm still stuck hard. This is going on 2 months now. Here's the whole story to date:

1. Filled tank, seeded with freshwater bacteria from my established 10gal.
2. Screwed up and dropped the Ammonia bottle in the tank sending the level through the roof, left for about a week before realizing it was NOT going down, did 2 big 50% water changes and got the level down to around 2-3ppm Ammonia.
3. Adamj convinced me to start increasing my salinity since my Colombians (currently in my 10, waiting to go into this new 77gal) are getting big enough to start acclimating them to brackish.
4. Week 3 or so, quickly brought my salinity up to 1.012. Watched Ammonia drop some more down to around 1ppm.
5. About 4-5 days later added some Knight Goby's to help cycle the newly Brackish tank.
6. After a couple weeks and discussions with Adamj about the whole freshwater/brackish bacteria thing, we decided to try lowering the salinity down again to freshwater, let it cycle that way, and then slowly bring the salinity back up, after the tank was cycled.
7. Stopped that process after post by Toodles about circulation and dead water, my salinity currently sits around 1.005 or so. Have increased water circulation, but to no major effect, and am now waiting again.
8. About a week ago, I added some gravel/sand from a used 34gal tank I had just boughten that was kept as saltwater, so am hoping that has introduced some brackish/saltwater bacteria.

So in Summary, after 2 months, I'm still sitting on the Ammonia cycle, its low, consistently around .5-1, depending when I add a capful of Ammonia here and there. The knight Goby's are doing fine, they don't seem to care, good appetites, no health problems. I'm at a loss completely. I'm thinking I'll continue with my previous plan of every other day water changes until my Salinity is back down to 1.000 again, and try and get the tank to continue its cycle in Freshwater, move my colombians in, and very slowly introduce salt over a period of water changes. Does that sound wise to everyone?