A few Pointers For me? Please

[niki090909]

I have a 10 gallon tank. I would like to turn it into a saltwater tank. This would be my first salt water attempt. So I'm looking for a few pointers. The tank is now equip. with UGF, 2 HOB filters, heater, regular gravel, some drift wood, and silk plants.

I have lots of reading to do up on saltwater. I have a general idea, but still have lots to learn before I go and jump into anything.

I would just like some advice on where to start.


1. What can I keep in a 10 gallon salt water tank?
I was thinking of a Tiger Fish, not sure if thats its actual name. Or maybe 2 sea horses? Is this possible?

2. Do you cycle a salt water tank the same as fresh water?

3. Is a ten gallon tank alot harder than having a bigger saltwater tank? As far as keeping conditions stable?

4. What special test kits will I need?

5. There are special gravels or sand for salt water. Does it have to be that gravel or can you use regular freshwater gravel?

6. As far as what I stated above about the equip. I have, what needs to be changed, upgraded, or new?

7. Any other do's and don'ts from your experiences?

I am sorry if these seem like silly questions, but some opinions/advice on these would help me in my research!

Any advice is really appreciated! I would say I'm pretty good with freshwater, just time to kick it up a notch. Really want to know what I'm getting into before I get my feet wet.


Thanks so much in advance! Niki

 

[colesea]

1) Not much can be kept in a ten gallon saltwater tank. Nearly all fish in the trade will out grow it eventually, or else be too territorial where they want the =whole= ten gallons to themselves. Seahorses are not good fish to start with. Contary to the myths being spread around, they are a difficult keep and require live foods and pristine water. I have no idea what you mean by tigerfish, could you mean Trigger fish? Trigger fish are definatly not appropriate for a 10 gallon tank, they grow large and are fiesty suckers. Possible fish in a 10 gallon SW aquarium, a pair of very small clowns, or two to three damsels.

2) Yes

3) Yes. Ten gallons is definatly a difficult tank to keep SW wise. Usually it is recommended that first time marine aquarist keep 75 gallons or more. While ten is do-able, it requires =constant= care and tweaking to keep it stable, and if it crashes, you are screwed royally. What you do for a ten gallon fresh water tank once a week, must be done on a ten gallon SW tank daily.

4) Ammonia, NitrItes, NitrAtes, salinity guage, thermometer, high range pH. You don't need hardness test kits, the water will be hard due to mineral compontets. pH isn't really all that important, it should always be high due to the hardness and mineral contents. Ammonia always zero, NitrItes always zero, NitrAtes below 5ppm (below 2ppm even better), salinity between 22-26ppt (or 34ppt depending upon species), temperature 76oF to 78oF (again, species dependant).

5) Most people will recommend a deep "live" sand bed, which is about 4" to 6" of silicate or coral sand seeded with microscopic critters and bacteria. If you are using a sand substrate you must loose the UGF. Crushed coral or argonite grave can be used with a UGF. FW aquarium gravel is not recommended because it does not have the proper mineral content to keep pH and hardness up.

6) Get rid of the UGF. They are a bit passe and most aquarist are gravatating away from them now in favor of deep sand beds. Loose one of the HOBs as well, HOB filters (especially those with biowheels) are mega nitrAte producers, and nitrAtes are more toxic in a SW tank than FW tank. A 10 gallon tank shouldn't be stocked heavily enough to need 2 HOBs anyway. Do purchase a well designed skimmer and a power-head. Many power heads can be fitted with a sponge filter, so it may make the other HOB unnecessary as well. Only problem is that many power heads are quite large and will take up a lot of room in the limited space of a 10 gallon. If you plan on doing any form of "live" rock, then look into compact flouresent lights (the type you see them writing about in the plant forum), you'll need at least 4 watts per gallon to support beneficial algae growth. If you're going to do lights, might as well get an automatic timer for them.

Most SW fish will rip the hell out of silk plants, nix those. Although I've never personally kept driftwood in one, hey, driftwood does occure in the ocean, so why not in a SW tank? It might look a bit awkward though, but that's your aestics.

Stock up on some garlic powder, that makes a good SW medication when mixed with flake foods, and get yourself a good book on fish health to keep handy.

Definatelly get yourself a second 10 gallon tank to set up as a quarintine. All the equipment necessary for the primary tank will be necessary for the q-tank, except maybe gravel and sand, since substrate can house disease a sick fish is shedding.

7) Don't do a 10 gallon tank as your first experience with SW aquarium keeping. Do do lots of research, lots and lots of research, and be very patient. Give yourself a good year to think things over. By that time you may have saved enough money to purchase a fully rigged 55 gallon, which is the minimum I recommend any first time SW aquarist begin with. The water chemistires will remain much more stable, you can purchase slightly larger more exotic fish, you can place more fish in the tank, and you will be less fustrated and more satisfied.

~~Colesea

 

[niki090909]

First off, THANK YOU SOO MUCH for your in depth response. I know it took you some time, I reallly appreciate it!

I do need to do tons of research, I realize that, especialy even more after reading your post.

I do think your right about starting off with a bigger tank. I mean even with freshwater, My 55 gallon is much easier than the 10 gallon is. If I ever do go salt water, I will definetly get a 55+ tank. Good Idea.


I had lots of fears, and you put a few more into my head, which is great lol. I think I'll stick with FW for now. Since I have a 55 gallon trop. tank now, I'm gunna look into something different.
Back to the drawing board, lol

Thanks for the eye opener Colesea!

Niki

 

[colesea]

No problem Niki. It's great to see someone dedicated enough in the hobby to ask intelligent questions, and it is a pleasure to answer them for you. Saltwater keeping is not all that difficult once you learn the ropes, and can be just as easy as a FW tank provided you give it the proper care. After awhile it all becomes second nature. I hope I haven't discouraged you too much.

A great way to keep your dream alive is to start a journal, writting down your ideas and the information you find. Visit your LFSs regularly and price shop. You can get cheap equipment if you look hard enough. The SW side of the hobby is full of as much antidotal information as the FW side, so keep in mind what might work for someone else may not work in your situation. Take all advice with a grain of salt. The only way you'll know the employee at the LFS is selling you something fishy is to keep yourself well informed!

The best way to plan a SW tank is around the fish you intend to keep. Jot down the species of fish you are interested in, then look them up in several sources. I like books more than the internet personally, and the library photocopies are not that expensive. Heck, even Borders and some other bookstores let you preview without buying. I go to Borders all the time to look stuff up, I sit down right in the aisle and read it.

To be honest, I don't have any personal SW tanks at all either because I don't have the space, finances, or time to dedicate to one. That and I don't want to show up all my friends who are so proud of themselves for struggling through with absolutely no clue as to what the hell they are doing.
~~Colesea

 

[zimmerlyct]

That and I don't want to show up all my friends who are so proud of themselves for struggling through with absolutely no clue as to what the hell they are doing.

We sure are awful sure of ourselves, huh???

 

[colesea]

Hey, I've kept SW tanks before, I know the ins and outs. That's not to say I won't have the usual difficulties, but those are the things I take in stride. I know better than to put a starfish in a tank to eat algae, as one of my friends is hell-bent on believing. I told her starfish are carnivores and she might want to give the poor skinny thing a piece of krill or mussle now and again, but she claims if she feeds it meats it won't eat the algae. I can't wait until it devours her terbo snails. And boy is her tank never water changed, never topped off, never cleaned. She thinks the thing takes care of itself and wonders why her clown has pop-eye. I don't bother trying, the wasted breath is better used elsewhere.
~~Colesea

 

[niki090909]

Thanks again for the advice colesea! Gunna give myself awhile to dwell on this SW thing. You have definetly helped push me in the right direction on my search for knowledge! lol TY

 

[toodles]

Being new to this site, I don't want to cause any hard feelings, but.....
While I will agree that bigger is better (with regards to saltwater keeping, especially for the newcomer), I do have to disagree that a smaller tank shouldn't be tried. Especially if you have the advantage of being a freshwater keeper first.
My very first salt tank was a 29g that was very successful and I have known others who started even smaller with good results. I have at the moment a 20g and a 55g and to be honest, I'm thinking of starting up another 20g. (Please someone, find a cure for this fishkeeping disease!!) I've also had in the past a 5g tank that I tore down only because it was so boring....I was growing some Mermen's shaving brush algae in there and was very, very limited on what I could keep in there with it.....(or so I thought!)

Definitly go with a deep sandbed. A properly set up sandbed will help to lower nitrates. Do not rely on your substrate to keep your pH levels up. The ability of argonite to dissolve starts at a pH of 7.5 or below which is too low for marine animals.

UG's are definitely a no-no as too much detrius is trapped. 2 HOB filters are too much, but I would keep one as they are much easier to keep clean and you can run carbon in there. 1 or 2 powerheads for water movement. No sponge filters on these as they will slow down the flow and also they are much harder to get to so you will be less likely to clean them. (Unless you are trying to raise any kind of fish larvae or copepods in which case this would be the way to go).
Live rock is a must, even if you have no desire to keep corals. It gives the benefical bacteria a place to live, provides hiding spots, gives the fish something to graze on and gives the tank a natural look. I would not use driftwood as it can sometimes lower the pH of water, plus it will stain the water and you will want it clear. Fake plants are up to you....
In a shallow tank like a 10g, regular flourescents will work fine if all you are interested in are some macro algaes, and fish. Inverts like featherdusters, snails and crabs don't require any special lighting either. If you desire corals then yes, PC's are the way to go for a tank that size.
A saltwater tank has to be cycled, but use the fishless method. Simply drop a raw piece of fish or shrimp in the tank and keep watch with your test kits.
A temperature of 80º to 82ºis now recommended (Dr. Ron Shimek @ reefcentral.com), and if you intend to keep ANY inverts like snails, hermit crabs, mushroom corals, etc....it's best to keep the salinity at 1.025. A pH between 8.0 to 8.4 is needed.
The biggest problem with small saltwater tanks is evaporation. When water evaporates in a salt tank, only the water goes, the salt stays behind. So if you lose a lot of water, your salinity will go up. It's mainly the fluctuation of this that causes problems (unless of course the salinity is allowed to go too high). I have found several ways to make this easier for me to deal with. The first is to use a hang on heater. The kind that has the water mark....you know, where the water level must be? IF you make sure your salinity is where it is supposed to be 1.025 and IF you make sure your water level is at or slightly above this water mark, THEN you only need to glance at this daily to see if you need to add top off water (no salt) or not. You can also use a piece of masking tape on the outside of the tank to do this. Once you have your salinity level correct, just put a piece of tape in a discreet spot level with the water level. Again, a simple glance is all that is needed to see if water needs to be added.
The next biggest problem is temperature fluctuation. Keep your thermometer where you can easily see it. A good heater will keep the tank warm, but in the summer, unless you have air conditioning, your tank may over heat. A fan aimed across the waters surface will help in this matter.
Another big problem is pH fluctuations. If your local tap water is good, and if your normal tap pH is at 7.0 or above, then your saltwater mix will keep the pH at it's proper level. (That and regular water changes) But if your local water is crap and you must use RO water and add buffers to it, it would be a good idea to check your pH in the middle of the week to make sure it isn't falling. (At least for the first couple of months until you get the feel of your tank).
Fish for a 10g must be small at adult size and no more than 2. Percula clowns are good, you could go with a pair, or one of them and a yellow tail damsel. Royal grammas stay small, or you could try bangaii cardinalfish.....just be careful not to overfeed. If you really wanted to go with seahorses, you would be better off looking up their requirements at www.seahorse.org Many species are now captive bred and trained to eat frozen foods (Ocean Rider is one of the breeders). Don't get me wrong, they are still difficult to keep, but if you were determined and dedicated it can be done.

Again, I agree that a bigger tank is better, but yet I understand many peoples desire to try a marine tank that maybe don't have the space or money for a larger tank.

If people are willing to put the effort into the smaller tank then they can have a slice of nature too.....

Just my 2¢

 

[wayne at home]

Toodles, is there a size below which you wouldn't bother skimming? Do you think a 10 is really any cheaper to run than a 20, and is it worth the bother when you think of how much more stable a 20 is than a 10.

 

[toodles]

I don't skim on my 55g either, so you are asking the wrong person about skimming!

Yes, a 20g gives you more leeway, more room for stock, but really I did not see the difference between the 20g and the 5g as far as temp, salinity and pH.....ALL small tanks are going to need at least a daily glance for temp and water level.....

And no, there isn't much difference money wise between setting up a 10g or a 20g, but that wasn't the posters question.

 

[wayne at home]

I'm intrigued by your filtration method toodles - more info please! Is it ecosystem, or something homemade but similar? Is the 55 reef or FOWLR, and what are you oding for water changes, supplementation (or not).....?

 

[toodles]

On both my tanks water changes are done weekly....approx 20% but sometimes a bit more....
No additives.
Lots of macro algaes.....in the case of the 55 these are in an in-tank refugium as there is a yellow tang in there that would eat them. In the 20 the macro algae is growing over the rocks and there are also some shaving brush algae in the sand.
Mechanical filtration is only an HOB on each tank. I run carbon in the filter and these pads are changed once every 3 to 4 weeks depending on how dirty they are. Both tanks have LR and a DSB.
I check water levels daily and right now with the heat running, the evaporation rate is rather high so I'm adding water daily. Oops, almost forgot to mention that when I do water changes, I always stir things up around the rocks using a turkey baster....gets alot of the crud out that way.

I am a firm believer that you can make this hobby as difficult/expensive as you want it to be....most people would be horrified at what I just described and would be even MORE upset when I mention that I use regular tapwater for all water changes and top offs. I am lucky that our water here is very good. (I dechlorinate the water of course). Truth of the matter is I do not have algae problems at all (no hair, bubble, bryopsis), all my corals are doing very well (mushroom, button, yellow polyp, porities, and anemone), my fish are very healthy and some are spawning, and the only fish I have lost since I started this side of the hobby was a dwarf angel that I suspect was caught using cynaide as it was the only fish that came down with ich repeatedly and I ended up humanely destroying it.

 

[wayne at home]

A very nice way of doing things, though I would suspect you keep your stocking levels (sensibly) low - no bad thing at all. What does the algae keep your nitrate at?
I,m glad to hear your tap water is in such good condition - so is mine - straight off a mountain, into a lake and into the local water main. Most people don't even dechlorinate as it's aded at such a low level, and at the moment I'm not sure the water board are chlorinating at all as rain levels are back to their normal, desparately high levels. Ours is 2degrees general hardness , zero carbonate hardness and pH 7.8 at the moment with zero nitrate and phosphate - lucky me!
One last question - how much turnover per hour?
Cyanide deaths usually look like slow starvation

 

[toodles]

My nitrates seem to stay right around 5 ppm in the 20g and under 20 ppm in the 55. I believe it helps that I change the filter pads whenever they look dirty or I do think my nitrates would be higher. In the 55g I am running 540gph and in the 20g it's 320gph. BTW, the 55 is a FOWLR and the 20 is the reef tank.

After re-reading my previous post, I may have come across as boasting that I've only lost one fish, like it's all been so easy. I didn't mean it that way at all, and want to clarify that even though I have had only one marine fish die, it's not like I haven't had problems with my tanks.....like the very first rocks I bought came complete with a mantis shrimp! I may not have lost alot of fish, but I've lost my share of inverts and most of them because of that shrimp! 6 scarlet hermit crabs, numerous snails and a horseshoe crab. I tried many different ways to remove the mantis, none of them worked. What did work was that I moved the rock the mantis lived in, into the 55g and my dwarf lionfish ended up eating him!
I also made the mistake of trying a flame scallop....with the well known results....the poor thing starved in my tank.....I've battled cynao......oh, and that angel that died, it ended up eating all my christmas tree worms that lived on the porities rock when I first got it. I still have the coral, but the worms are history......

I had always thought that cynaide capture could affect the fish in different ways.....well, whatever it was that caused this, the poor angel was the only fish ever affected, it would recover in QT but as soon as it was put back in the main tank, back the ich would come. It ended up being so infested and so bloated from all the treatments that I really felt I had no choice but to destroy it.

Your water sounds really great! What kind of fish/corals do you keep?

 

[wayne at home]

At the moment nothing, I broke my tank down when I looked like I would be working away from home a lot - eventually I just moved country twice in 4 months.
I've been having fun with apistogrammas, and at the moment just breeding a few things, but I'm sorely tempted to stop everything, and go from a few freshwater to a single reef again. I have a new child however so I'll se how it is in a month or so.