20G RCS Planted Tank.

Fuzz16

Superstar Fish
Oct 20, 2006
1,918
3
0
Wellsville, KS
#1
Nov. 7, 2011.
Day One.

Tank: 20g long w/ versa top lid
Substrate: Miracle Grow Organic (All-purpose) capped with gravel
Lighting: Current 24" Compact Fluorescent 65W. Need to replace bulb.
Filter: For now a whisper 30 running carbon also until tank is settled. Plan to do a sponge filter.

Fish:
3 female bettas
3 platys
3 ghost shrimp
funny how they go in threes...theyll go to another tank once i have it up.
this will be shrimp only tank...minus maybe snails


Plants:
none at the moment..still planning

so far...its dusty :) i kinda like the look of the dirt thats settling on the rocks, looks like the creek bed. this dirt things new to me...so well see how it goes
 

Fuzz16

Superstar Fish
Oct 20, 2006
1,918
3
0
Wellsville, KS
#3
dk, ill start with a dozen...or so. enought o get one female and one male, then ill just let them go.
the bio-load of shrimp is so small i could prob fit 2000 fine in there
 

Fuzz16

Superstar Fish
Oct 20, 2006
1,918
3
0
Wellsville, KS
#8
Day 2

Tank is still cloudy. Plants should be arriving tomorrow so it better get over itself -.-



Small ammonia spike, but kinda expected that one. my ghost shrimp all died -.- fish are all doing fine though. cept yesterday i lost the sickest of the female bettas. not a lot i could do but at least she didnt die in a cup

And how cute is this??? I tied a ballon to her wrist with a bell and she was loving it :)
 

Fuzz16

Superstar Fish
Oct 20, 2006
1,918
3
0
Wellsville, KS
#9
Day 3

I HATE HATE HATE being cheap. I should have just gone the way I knew how instead of trying something new that's cheap. -.-
My fish are all dead cept my bettas. My ammonia was .05 and nitrite was 0 so idk if they werent getting enough oxygen or what.

moved the bettas to vases
emptied the tank...took about an hour. MIND i am in an apartment. So my bathroom is a muddy mess.

Did I mention the bedroom and bathroom smell like poop :) like hot nasty smelly hog waste. yes. my 3 year old kept saying how i need to wash my hands and stop paying with poop. of course!

So figured...i will not try the soil again. I will be doing something else that will also be easy to tear down and set up if we move, easy to mantain and clean and nothing that murks up my tank and kills my fish.


So I will start over with Day 1!

I do not want people getting discouraged by using MGO because of this. I messed up. I was impateint and lazy. Thin layer of MGO about 1", place driftwood or rocks. then cap with rocks or sand about 1.5-2". want to add substrate with tank EMPTY. After substrate is how you like it, put plate on bottom and slowly add water. do your research on it.
 

Jul 18, 2011
291
0
0
underwater
#10
Day 3

I HATE HATE HATE being cheap. I should have just gone the way I knew how instead of trying something new that's cheap. -.-
My fish are all dead cept my bettas. My ammonia was .05 and nitrite was 0 so idk if they werent getting enough oxygen or what.

moved the bettas to vases
emptied the tank...took about an hour. MIND i am in an apartment. So my bathroom is a muddy mess.

Did I mention the bedroom and bathroom smell like poop :) like hot nasty smelly hog waste. yes. my 3 year old kept saying how i need to wash my hands and stop paying with poop. of course!

So figured...i will not try the soil again. I will be doing something else that will also be easy to tear down and set up if we move, easy to mantain and clean and nothing that murks up my tank and kills my fish.


So I will start over with Day 1!

I do not want people getting discouraged by using MGO because of this. I messed up. I was impateint and lazy. Thin layer of MGO about 1", place driftwood or rocks. then cap with rocks or sand about 1.5-2". want to add substrate with tank EMPTY. After substrate is how you like it, put plate on bottom and slowly add water. do your research on it.
Wait, you moved all your fish from the 10G to the 20G? You could have seeded your 20G by taking the filter media from the 10G and squeezing it in the 20G. Of course, that doesn't mean you can stock it to the limit right then, because it only supports the bio-load of 1 betta, 3 platies, and 3 shrimp. At least you would have a developing colony of bacteria there, and you only added 2 more fish....so yeah.

But I don't think you can do it anymore since the beneficial bacteria pro'lly died.
 

Thyra

Superstar Fish
Jun 2, 2010
1,891
0
0
Yelm, WA
#11
Is that Miracle Grow Organic something special for fish tanks? I thought "Miracle Grow" was a brand name for a soil for planters, etc. and if it is the same thing it has a lot of extra fertilizers, etc. that really gives plants a boost. I wonder how healthy that is for fish because as soon as it gets wet all those added ingredients, even if they are organic, would be in the water.
 

Fuzz16

Superstar Fish
Oct 20, 2006
1,918
3
0
Wellsville, KS
#12
technically it was not the move that killed them...i took everything from the 10g and put it into the 20 so there would be minimal bacteria loss or needed to grow. same filter, rocks, decor. it wasnt the move that killed them. im assuming it had something to do with the gas pockets and oxygen levels in the tank.

miracle grow is for plants, not aquriums, but there are a lot people who use it, or dirt from their backyard, as something to use in place of flourite, eco-complete, ada ect due to cost. And organic cannot have chemicals...hence organic. its just dirt with a fancy name on it grown in a place with high levels of what plants need to thrive.

while i am still learning a lot after 8 active years of the hobby...i read and learn everyday and i make mistakes and i will learn from them too.
 

Newman

Elite Fish
Sep 22, 2009
4,668
0
0
Northern NJ
#13
So you used miracle gro organic potting mix in this tank, capped it with gravel and it still smelled really bad? did you disturb the substrate at all during the whole process, after putting it into the tank?
I used this method in a 1 gallon bowl for shrimp (I capped it with sand) and i never noticed a smell...so i'm worrying if its something i should watch out for if I'm trying the same method for a big tank.
Did you leave everything be for a few weeks before adding fish? What i did is i planted the thing first, let it sit until i saw a lot of growth with the plants and then i added one shrimp. i still got a nitrite spike of 1ppm within the week but the shrimp did ok, i immediately started doing weekly water changes and never saw anything since...(shrimp are still doing fine to this day)

Overall would you say that not waiting for the plants to get going, and putting animals in this from the start, caused it to crash and smell bad?
 

Fuzz16

Superstar Fish
Oct 20, 2006
1,918
3
0
Wellsville, KS
#14
I shut down the 10g and upgraded it all to the 20g. rocks and filter and heater and decore from 10g went to 20g including water. so it was like a water change. i didnt just throw fish into a non-cycled tank.

i used all-purpose, not potting, havnt heard a difference between the two. and my cap wasnt deep enough, and the dirt smells bad dry, so it didnt smell wonderful wet. i dont think the smell corrolated with the crash, but there were a ton of gas bubbles about the tank and so i believe that due to not a thick enough cap it caused issues. i didnt expect to see bubbles coming up from the dirt through the rocks for sure...so idk.



either way...going to pick up the new substrate tomorrow, ordering some root tabs, and my plants should be here in a weekish.
 

Thyra

Superstar Fish
Jun 2, 2010
1,891
0
0
Yelm, WA
#15
I just looked at the Miracle Grow website and I could only find one organic soil and it was not to be used in pots. It is only for outdoor use. I think the bubbles being given off was the soil taking on water and possibly the nitrogen in it being released. IMO I don't think any amount of gravel on top of it would have prevent this. Whether it was bad for the fish or not I don't know. It is organic because it has no pesticides in it, but it does make things grow with the extra fertilizer it has and I suspect that is the result of manure of some type.
 

Fuzz16

Superstar Fish
Oct 20, 2006
1,918
3
0
Wellsville, KS
#16
hm...their organic line is blood meal, all-purpose, something else, and the potting mix-which ive only seen in large bags at like home depot. but i dk if the type between all-purpose and potting-mix is that important or makes much of a difference...cept maybe smell? lol
and i wouldnt be surprised if it was manure, either, horse manure makes GREAT fertilizer
and while reading on how to do a dirt tank i never read anything about bubbles, so it def. threw me off. I am sure if sand was used it would be a lot better at not making a dirty mess and aoiding smells. Spent 6$ and learned a lesson. Now the soil is going to be used out in the garden and tilled in. so not a total waste, although horse manure IS much cheaper
 

Newman

Elite Fish
Sep 22, 2009
4,668
0
0
Northern NJ
#17
thats what i basically plan to do when i move out sometime soon - setup a large tank (40gal breeder), have a bottom layer of organic soil, capped with playsand, a bunch of blyxa plants and have the whole thing be just a tank for shrimp...lol i know it sounds funny but i'd be crazy enough to try it :p
 

Fuzz16

Superstar Fish
Oct 20, 2006
1,918
3
0
Wellsville, KS
#18
what kinda shrimp? itd be cool :) maybe some hills and driftwood cobered in riccia or moss too, everything green. thatd be pretty
why play sand over blasted? or pool filter sand? id worrya bout not being able to get it clean enough. i know a lot of people use it without issue...but blah. seen the kitty litter also? ive seen people doa THIN layer of kitty litter for the clay, then MGO (or dirt from backyard), then cap it. just make sure you have at least a 1-1.5 cap, that was my mistake
 

Newman

Elite Fish
Sep 22, 2009
4,668
0
0
Northern NJ
#19
i haven't had an issue in my 1 gallon bowl with a 0.5" cap of play sand, but yes in a larger tank i'll likely go more. I will stay away from dirt from my yard because i have no idea what kind of stuff is in there. I prefer miracle gro organic potting soil Miracle-Gro Organic Choice Potting Mix – 16 Quart « IM-Hydro.com and will probably use that.

play sand probably has a nice tan color and different texture than the more whiter sands. i think i like it more. cleaning isn't that much of an issue i hope. in worst case, I'll have it sitting in a bucket with water running through it to rinse it for a while.

I was planning on keeping this very basic (having already been through all the artistic moves with iwagumi rocks, slopes, carpet plants, driftwood). I can now appreciate something very simple, so i have decided to go with just about one species of plant - blyxa japonica- but if i can find another species of blyxa for variety, i'll also include that in my scape. I hope to also keep maintenance to a minimum so i wont use any stem plants (other than blyxa, and i wont house any tall varieties either). Floating plants are a must, so i will likely use Salvinia or something similar.

Since the tank is only planned to have shrimp, I'll go light with filtration - probably one AquaClear50 HOB. just enough to supply water movement over the large tank. shrimp and plants dont need that much anyway. That should allow me to keep 300+ shrimp in there comfortably.

The scape will be very basic and probably not very showy like Amano tanks lol, but I'll try my best to make it pleasant to look at - the tank will be mostly just for breeding shrimp. the plants are an added benefit for biological filtration. The scape will consist of one large slope/hill, highest point somewhere in the middle of the tank, but probably off-center to try and follow the golden rule/ratio of scaping. Since I'll put soil in a big pile only in the center of the tank, (the outer edges will just have sand and won't be planted) the blyxa will all be planted in one big, elongated island in the center of the tank to provide cover for the shrimp. I don't know if i'll use DW yet, but i might use some on the outer edges to mark the boundary between the open sand area and the blyxa "island".

I'm still hung up on my lighting situation. I want this setup to be extremely low energy. It probably wont even have a heater (If i find that i can keep the apartment temperature at least 70F, that will be good enough). I'm thinking my light will just be one BoostLED PAR30 lamp, but i'm doubting that it could cover the tank well...though i only really need it to cover the center where the plants are, so it may work with just one bulb. the bulb is only 10W of LED, but it has decent light output, and if i put it high up enough, it might be able to cover the exact area i need; the outer edges of the tank don't really need much light since nothing will be growing there.

An LED lamp doesn't need to be replaced as frequently as other lighting, so that should help save costs even more. the lamp will likely last me more than 10 years without any worry, unless i drop it lol... so in total that would include the AC70 HOB (6W) and the light bulb (10W) so a 40 gallon running on only 16W would probably not be very expensive, providing the shrimp breed to great proportions and I will be able to sell them for a decent profit.

Add to that reduced maintenance: I want to steer away from doing much water changing in the tank. i feel the plants would really help with this, plus shrimp sucking out minerals from the initial water can be mediated by putting in a few mineral rocks in there for them...So i can likely end up with a tank that will only really need top offs, and very rare water changes if things get out of control with nitrates. Of course I'll still need to feed the shrimp once their numbers rise past the level that the plants can support (shrimp can find food all over the tank, but especially the bio film on plants and DW/substrate).

Finally to answer your actual question, I'll likely start out with my red cherry shrimp and see how they do. If they breed out of control, and I sell enough to make around $200+ then I will probably switch to a more interesting shrimp like sulawesi, but this shrimp choice will all depend on my tap water, which i will test once i move to the apartment I'll be living at. Most likely in NJ it's still going to be liquid rock though :( which would restrict me to Neocaridina shrimp for starters and sulawesi shrimp as the most advanced shrimp i can get. If my tap is soft however, I'll likely go with crystal shrimp after i breed the cherries. And if regular red or black crystals are really successful (they are more expensive than most cherries too) then i could potentially look forward to getting some of the more expensive crystal shrimp such as Blue Bolt, Panda, Black King Kong, or Red Wine shrimp. Or i could just go with Tiger shrimp instead of crystal shrimp, eventually working my way up to Orange Eye Blue Tiger shrimp or Black Tiger shrimp. those two are the more expensive of that species.

At the moment I have some Taiwan Fire Red cherry shrimp growing up in one of my small tanks, so if I can manage to hold their population until i move and finally setup this 40 gallon beast, I'll be starting the 40 gal with them. I'm looking forward to being able to breed them for the most intense red I can get, because i think those really red cherries look best :) They can sell for up to $9 per shrimp too. But I'm probably far from that point still haha.
In my other small planted tank, right now I have low grade crystal red shrimp, so I may be using them after my cherries are successful, but only if my tap water turns out to be soft...(I am using re-mineralized RO water for them at the moment).

Hopefully my rant about my planned tank helped your thinking about shrimp tanks, its even better if you think that some of my plans wont work because then we can discuss and find out what will work for either of our shrimp tanks. I wrote all that to try give you some ideas about yours too :)
 

Fuzz16

Superstar Fish
Oct 20, 2006
1,918
3
0
Wellsville, KS
#20
how long with the play sand keep the natural peachy look? whites so pretty...its too bad it goes dark so quick

with a tank that big, why not invest in a canister filter and set it up with a sponge on it?

depending on layout you could easily add more without issues of overcrowding or anything else, let them breed more anyways. as i am sure itd be hard to count all the time lol

still learning lights so no input there...SW is easier, but FW and planted seems to have a lot more to think about regarding lighting. and efficieny is better than cheap. you want the light to do the job at a decent price. :) idk much about leds but i know i generally hate fans going all the time.

and put peat down to to soften your water, driftwood will help soften water too. id hate using a chemical buffer with (expensive) shrimp so natural ways would be ideal.

id like to someday do crystals maybe,, i like the tiger shrimp, and green. im simple :)

the idea of breeding for color (and health) is awesome, but wouldnt it be difficult in sucha large group? theres nothing controlled about it, unless you are culling (not nec. kill, just rehome or move) out the ones that are lighter. and of course, the weak ones die.

and no problem :) i learned some in that too. the tank, for me, will be more about aestics and learning about plants. so the tank could be empty for all i care. but thatd be hard :) i had thought about doing a giant betta and attempt a community, or something, but i am sure one giant betta leads to more. and it would be an addiction i dont have time or money for now the set up to breed, which it would lead to. bred them once and all but 3 fry died. huge learning curve.