Protien skimmers, an essential piece of equipment

[Fish Friend]

wow i now know what a protien skimmer is now

[wayne]

Managuense, I think you're right to about 30 gallons, but above that I tihnk you're wrong, skimmers become a very useful, if not quite essential tool in maintaining water quality.
Weekly dilutions are a great idea, but chaning 10% a week on an average 55 gallon tank is just not going to do it. I change 50% on my nano at least once a week as that is possible. Do I believe that's realistic for a 120 gallon tank? No I do not. But if it's a reef with a couple of decent sized fish, and a small bunch of anthias or whatever, it might be necessary. Actually reefs may be able to develop other ways of nutrient export (though overstocking as is normal will be a problem for many of these systems) but the real problems come with FOWLR and Fish only. These tanks frequently contain gross (in every sense of the word) amounts of dissolved organics that have to be handled some way. The protein skimmer is a very effective way of removing organics before they start to hammer on your biofiltration, or just become algae food.
I know full well how much salt you can buy for the price of a decent skimmer - and I know how quickly you'll use it up as well, and the maths don't work in favour of the salt in the long run. But to base your maths around 5 gallon changes, or 10% on a 55 is not realistic.

I am the king of water changes. I was not slightly bothered by the labour required to do biweekly 25% on my tropheus and discus, and frankly often did more than that. If I was keeping those fish again I'd plumb them into the mains. But I don't think that it's terribly practical to run a decent marine system sans skimmer, and to expect an easy time of it.
And before we go to that discussion I am fully aware of Jauberts systems, Adeys work (theoretically great , doesn't work in practice)and the ecosystem method.

[Managuense]

that's cool bro, disagreement makes the forum fun (especially since i RARELY post much these days)

that problem i find with "skimmer pushers" is that it is still relatively unknown exactly how much skimming (and i mean EFFECTIVE skimming) will actually lower measurable DOC's such as nitrates, or phosphates, etc.

I know many people who, after removing their skimmers, find that their coral grows at a seemingly higher rate.....obviously still with the use of carbon on occasion.

on a system with plenty of good LR (with anoxic conditions existing) it seems that nitrates are of no noticable difference with or without skimming.

what is your experience with this?

interesting science behind this.......even if i am way off my rocker
M

[wayne]

Oh effective skimming can remove a ton of stuff, you just need to look at the skimmate.
I would agree that many people seem to do better when they turn their skimmer off, there are also a lot of people, especially non reef people who do much better when they get a skimmer.

Do not mix up DOC's with nitrate/phosphate. Skimmers do NOT DIRECTLY remove nitrate phosphate, what they do is remove organics BEFORE they mineralise to these non organic compounds. By lightning on the load on the biofilt, they can allow the biofilt to do a better job on the mineral products that are left.

My experience with low nitrates/ high nitrates on skimmed/ unskimmed systems is that it is perfectly possible but not on an average system. As the rate of oxidative processes in an aquarium will generally be far higher than reductive (it' s the enviroment, essentially oxidative) I feel it unlikely that nitrates will not reduce themselves out withour something actively removing them, be it a dsb, or a bio influence (Caulerpa, clams, fast growing stonies) whatever. This was the bane of the Live rock only 'Berlin system' in it's true form.

You should look at the skimmers on a farm system. Typically these are big air blown olde worlde units, and you would be astonished at how much kak they can lift off what are essentially low bioload systems.

I would agree you can overskim systems, however the effects are usually less dire than underskimming/cleaning,

I have no greal 'love' for skimmers, but they are damn good at doing a job.

More tomorrow

[dbarrs]

Hello everyone I am a newbee at this and I wandering if there is a way to build my own skimmer or should I purchase a new one. Also I was told to use ocean water in my tank instead of the salt mix. Can someone let me know which way to go. Thanks.

[wayne]

Yes you can d.i.y., but if you have never diy'ed it is not the easiest to build, adjust.

Unless you live somewhere with pristine ocean water mix your own

[dbarrs]

I have a 125 and I have been drug though the mug on prices for things that I don't need. I spoke with a local supplier and he said live rock and a protien skimmer would be enough. Is he correct.

[CAPSLOCK]

LR and a protein skimmer and a good powerhead (or 2 or 3) for water movement... the water movement over the live rocks provides most of the filtration.

[shwnicus]

welcome!

there are LOTS of th DIY skimmer plans to be found on the web, some good, some not so good, very view will perform as well as a quality commercial brand like the remora (read the review article above). I think it depends on the size tank your are using and what you bio-load is.

as for the ocean water, I think that depends on your source of it. for example, I'd avoid it if you live in southern Louisiana. knowing what we dump in the Mississippi here in Missouri, I wouldn't want traces of that in my tank
that said, I know there are some in here that do use ocean water, hopefully they'll chime in.

as for the arguement about the necessity of a skimmer: I hate to be devil's advocate here, but I think its largely situacional and dependant on your tank size, its bioload, and your maintanence level. as much as I REALLY want one for my 20 gal, its problably not necessary as I am religious on weekly water changes. Its not that the skimmer wouldn't produce foam, I'm sure it would, but that the price of the skimmer would not out perform the organic removal of my water changes. the need for a skimmer also is going to be effected by the life in the tank. some things need those proteins to filter for food, some find those organics toxic. and again, it (the skimmer) will not lower levels of the big 3 (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) but will lower the concentration of chemicals that degrade into or that bacteria can eat and thereby produce the big 3. you really just need to know your tank life and find that critical balance between nutrition and toxin. ideally, the skimmer removes not all organics, just the excess. I have read the argument repeatly about "dirty" water causing corals to grow better. seems like an off argument to me. after all, if you over-feed your dog, it bets bigger (fatter) but thats not exactly a good thing is it? same thing here, its finding that balance thats important. the skimmer is an efficient tool to helping you find that in your tank.

and as someone else said, if you think I'm off my rocker, please chime in! thats what forums are for

Originally Posted by dbarrs

Hello everyone I am a newbee at this and I wandering if there is a way to build my own skimmer or should I purchase a new one. Also I was told to use ocean water in my tank instead of the salt mix. Can someone let me know which way to go. Thanks.

[ontheroad]

Got to agree with you on this one!