Hillstream Loach River Tank

Orion · 03-07-2005, 08:32 AM

I don't think anyone is tring to burst your bubble at all (Play nice Taff

), mearly tring not only to understand ourselves, but help you as well by making you think. If you understand the whys of what you do, then you are more likley to advert a major disaster down the road somewhere.

I find it quite interesting what you are doing. If we do not have those who break out of the norm, then we never get anything new.

But I do have to side with Taffy on the water changes. In a litteral meaning(well mine anyways), a water change would be when water is taken out of the tank, then the water that was removed is then replaced. If its removed by you or by evaporation, its still being removed. But I see 100% what you are tring to acomplish with your No Water Change tank. No water changes in the traditional sense.

There was a thread on here (I belive) a while back about the use of an algae filter. And this somehow reduced the needed water changes drasticly ( I forget the hows and whys). And several other accounts of other filtration systems that were used and implimented to reduce the need for water changes almost to nothing. So with a combination of some of these with what you already know and use, well, I think you see where this is going.

NoDeltaH2O · 03-07-2005, 02:09 PM

I see your point that adding water can be viewed as a water change. Maybe I'll slide the old dusty plexiglass back on top of the tank to cut back on the evaporation. Nah, methinks not. I realize that the evaporation allows me to cheaply add traces and buffering capacity back into the water.

Quoted froim TaffyFish:

"You can't possibly believe this replicates "an environment of continual water changes", in wayne's context? Do you have an example of such circulation in a river system? I am sorry that you view such questioning as unfriendly, I do however like to burst bubbles! I admire much of what you're trying to achieve, but keep it real eh? :-)"

Who does accurately "replicate" the environment fish come from in nature. Come on, we put them in a glass box. And please don't be offended that I referred to MrParker as a friend. Good friends tell you what you want to hear, but great friends will tell you what you don't want to hear. I appreciate TaffyFish's debate, as only through disagreement can we get all the facts out in the open. (I like you all)

Now, not wanting to have a drastic crash, I have some questions:

Does anybody have an idea as to why my KH is going up?

Is it because of the calciferous rocks or because I am only ading water and never removing anything but pure evaporated H2O and trimmed plant matter, of both?

Anybody have any idea on a safe upper limit on KH level?
Correct me if I am wrong, but higher KH allows higher CO2 concentrations for the same amount of CO2 input via DIY mixes? Could a high enough KH allow me to stop adding CO2? With a Kh reading of 15 and tap pH of 7.4, would 18ppm CO2 be enough without supplementation? I'm sure that plants get uncomfortable at some point with high KH, as well as fish. But when?

TaffyFish · 03-07-2005, 05:47 PM

You're absolutely right, the cause of the increasing KH is the evaporation of pure water and replacement with tap, the carbonates are thereby steadily increasing. It's unlikely that the rocks will have much affect whilst your pH is still on the alkaline side of neutral - it'll need to be more acid to start breaking down the rock.

Can't help any further though, but I'd expect an increasing KH will cause osmoregularity problems with the fish. Maybe they'll start flashing, maybe not, as the increase is very gradual. This would become evident as gill function and digestive problems. Maybe you'll have to replace some or all of the evaporated water with RO?

An increase of KH usually produces an increase in pH, this kind of additional buffering could raise it to 8.2 where it would then be held stable. Your pH is being held down at 7.6 by the CO2, I wonder how stable this is.

NoDeltaH2O · 03-07-2005, 07:23 PM

No, my tap water has a pH of 7.6, the CO2 is bringing it down to between 6.6 and 7.0 in the tank. Having said that, it sounds to me like you are (at least indirectly) saying that the calciferous rocks may in fact be breaking down due to the acidic water. Osmoregularity problems contribute to popeye disease, don't they?
Are you washing your hands of my tank now?

Quote:

In freshwater environments, an animal's body fluids are generally hyperosmotic to the environment. In this environment an animal tends to gain water and lose solutes.

Since freshwater species are osmoregulators instead of osmoconformers, does this mean that if the osmolarity of calcium and/or Carbonates build up in the water then the fish will not be hyperosmotic with respect to this parameter as usual and may have trouble losing the solutes?

PS: If I replaced the evaporated water with RO water, could I then call it a no water change tank? (Pure H2O out, replaced with pure H2O back in)

I am not a chemist.

dss2004 · 03-07-2005, 07:47 PM

Yeah but over time don't salts begin to break down or get used by plants in some form or fashion? If so and you only supplied RO water wouldn't you switch from a high KH envrioment to a low KH and even GH environment over time?

Orion · 03-07-2005, 07:48 PM

For all that it matters you could call your tank a pink and purple elephant but that doesn't meen it is one.

I wouldn't worry so much with what you call it as what it does.

You are tring to recycle as much of what goes into the tank, right? Because normaly water changes are done to remove pollutants and other chemicals and solids that would be harmfull to fish. As far as I know, that is the reason for them. So you need to remove these things from the water -OR- make them to where they would not be harmfull to fish. The point of the RO water was that you would not be adding anything into the tank other than H2O when you top of the tank. This will lower the Kh back down. But by doing this I would think that eventualy the PH buffer will be gone. Not that using RO would be a bad thing, but if that is what is raising the Kh, then this will be another problem to be assesed.

If all the tank water was RO, and was replaced with RO water, then the only pollutants in the water would then be those from the fish. (Right?) At least this way you have a better idea, understanding and control of what is in the water.

Im not a chemist either. Get much past DIY Co2 and Im lost.

NoDeltaH2O · 03-07-2005, 08:01 PM

Both of your comments made sense. I am thinking maybe I should add RO water some of the time because I DO NOT want the KH to steadily increase over time. I don't exactly know what osmoregularity problem are, but it sounds worse than a rectal exam, and to be avoided if at all possible. I think the original KH level of 13.5 was pretty good as with it i had no exhibitionists or flashers. I really think that the gravel I used and the rocks I put in when I set the tank up had a large contribution to raising the KH level because this tank has always had a KH of 13.5 whereas my other tanks all have a KH of 10. But I do agree that always adding water and not taking any of the "old" water out probably will increase KH over the long haul and I need to keep an eye on this. I have learned so much here! Keep the knowledge comin'.

Lotus · 03-07-2005, 08:12 PM

It sounds to me like you have a little too much CO2 in there if you have a KH of 14 and a pH of 7.0. Of course, CO2 doesn't displace oxygen, so as long as you have enough water movement, your fish should be OK. I would turn down the CO2 a little. If your KH is rising, then you will be adding more and more CO2 to keep the pH down, and consequently pushing the safe limits of CO2, IMO. Generally, and increase in KH will increase the pH, although I'm not sure if there's a direct chemical relationship that's measurable. However, you won't get a level of 18ppm CO2 in the tank without adding it artificially.

NoDeltaH2O · 03-07-2005, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lotus

If your KH is rising, then you will be adding more and more CO2 to keep the pH down, and consequently pushing the safe limits of CO2, IMO.

Thanks Lotus! You have hit the nail on the head I think. I've used water softeners before to lower the KH with mixed success. Don't water softeners usually just use salts, (like seasalt or potassium chloride)? I have recently backed off from the KCl dosing I was doing, as suggested by Avalon. I think my swords appreciated the potassium more than my other plants, so I'm trying to find a happy medium with the potssium regimen. I must admit, this tank would be a lot less headaches if I would just change the water like normal people do but I have come too far to back down now. I am sure there is a way to rid the water of pollutants short of siphoning water out or having a crash. With all of your help I believe we can make this happen, (or I'll kill all my fish trying).

Salty Fishes · 03-08-2005, 02:51 PM

Why would adding RO water lower the kH of the aquarium? I was under the impression that carbonates would not evaporate with the water. Therefore, as the water evaporated, the kH would essentially rise. I believe that no solutes evaporate with water.

By the way, I think that your tank is beautiful, dr drake, and the idea of it seems very cool. Its seems like your fish and plants are happy. Itll be interesting to see how it works out.

View Poll Results: Is it worth avoiding water changes to have so many plants?
Yes, I hate water changes and love plants.	30	34.88%
Yes, more plants make the fish calmer and provide hiding places for spawning.	49	56.98%
Yeah, but plants need the CO2 jugs changed, so you trade one hassle for another.	15	17.44%
No, I like naked tanks so I can see the fish.	4	4.65%
No, I love changing water and worrying about nitrates.	7	8.14%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

03-07-2005, 08:32 AM	#31
Orion Moderator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,666	I don't think anyone is tring to burst your bubble at all (Play nice Taff ), mearly tring not only to understand ourselves, but help you as well by making you think. If you understand the whys of what you do, then you are more likley to advert a major disaster down the road somewhere. I find it quite interesting what you are doing. If we do not have those who break out of the norm, then we never get anything new. But I do have to side with Taffy on the water changes. In a litteral meaning(well mine anyways), a water change would be when water is taken out of the tank, then the water that was removed is then replaced. If its removed by you or by evaporation, its still being removed. But I see 100% what you are tring to acomplish with your No Water Change tank. No water changes in the traditional sense. There was a thread on here (I belive) a while back about the use of an algae filter. And this somehow reduced the needed water changes drasticly ( I forget the hows and whys). And several other accounts of other filtration systems that were used and implimented to reduce the need for water changes almost to nothing. So with a combination of some of these with what you already know and use, well, I think you see where this is going. __________________ I am Species 5618: Coffee Based life form Join us in the MFT.net chatroom!

03-07-2005, 02:09 PM	#32
NoDeltaH2O Super Fish Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Posts: 1,868	I see your point that adding water can be viewed as a water change. Maybe I'll slide the old dusty plexiglass back on top of the tank to cut back on the evaporation. Nah, methinks not. I realize that the evaporation allows me to cheaply add traces and buffering capacity back into the water. Quoted froim TaffyFish: "You can't possibly believe this replicates "an environment of continual water changes", in wayne's context? Do you have an example of such circulation in a river system? I am sorry that you view such questioning as unfriendly, I do however like to burst bubbles! I admire much of what you're trying to achieve, but keep it real eh? :-)" Who does accurately "replicate" the environment fish come from in nature. Come on, we put them in a glass box. And please don't be offended that I referred to MrParker as a friend. Good friends tell you what you want to hear, but great friends will tell you what you don't want to hear. I appreciate TaffyFish's debate, as only through disagreement can we get all the facts out in the open. (I like you all) Now, not wanting to have a drastic crash, I have some questions: Does anybody have an idea as to why my KH is going up? Is it because of the calciferous rocks or because I am only ading water and never removing anything but pure evaporated H2O and trimmed plant matter, of both? Anybody have any idea on a safe upper limit on KH level? Correct me if I am wrong, but higher KH allows higher CO2 concentrations for the same amount of CO2 input via DIY mixes? Could a high enough KH allow me to stop adding CO2? With a Kh reading of 15 and tap pH of 7.4, would 18ppm CO2 be enough without supplementation? I'm sure that plants get uncomfortable at some point with high KH, as well as fish. But when? __________________ Love, Peace, & Soul,... Delta________I am the Chosen One_I bring balance to the forum Hillstream Loach Planted River Tank ~4.5wpg ODNO DIY CO2 ________"A Proud Member of the Anti-Ballistic Comment Treaty" PS: my school web account got closed down after graduation, so none of my pictures in old threads are accessible until I move them all elsewhere, sorry. Last edited by NoDeltaH2O; 03-07-2005 at 02:21 PM..

03-07-2005, 05:47 PM	#33
TaffyFish Super Fish Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,467	You're absolutely right, the cause of the increasing KH is the evaporation of pure water and replacement with tap, the carbonates are thereby steadily increasing. It's unlikely that the rocks will have much affect whilst your pH is still on the alkaline side of neutral - it'll need to be more acid to start breaking down the rock. Can't help any further though, but I'd expect an increasing KH will cause osmoregularity problems with the fish. Maybe they'll start flashing, maybe not, as the increase is very gradual. This would become evident as gill function and digestive problems. Maybe you'll have to replace some or all of the evaporated water with RO? An increase of KH usually produces an increase in pH, this kind of additional buffering could raise it to 8.2 where it would then be held stable. Your pH is being held down at 7.6 by the CO2, I wonder how stable this is. __________________ ......who stole my banner?

03-07-2005, 07:47 PM	#35
dss2004 Large Fish Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Frisco, Texas Posts: 926	Yeah but over time don't salts begin to break down or get used by plants in some form or fashion? If so and you only supplied RO water wouldn't you switch from a high KH envrioment to a low KH and even GH environment over time? __________________ Doyle's Fish Tanks and Friends Updated 8/20

03-07-2005, 07:48 PM	#36
Orion Moderator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,666	For all that it matters you could call your tank a pink and purple elephant but that doesn't meen it is one. I wouldn't worry so much with what you call it as what it does. You are tring to recycle as much of what goes into the tank, right? Because normaly water changes are done to remove pollutants and other chemicals and solids that would be harmfull to fish. As far as I know, that is the reason for them. So you need to remove these things from the water -OR- make them to where they would not be harmfull to fish. The point of the RO water was that you would not be adding anything into the tank other than H2O when you top of the tank. This will lower the Kh back down. But by doing this I would think that eventualy the PH buffer will be gone. Not that using RO would be a bad thing, but if that is what is raising the Kh, then this will be another problem to be assesed. If all the tank water was RO, and was replaced with RO water, then the only pollutants in the water would then be those from the fish. (Right?) At least this way you have a better idea, understanding and control of what is in the water. Im not a chemist either. Get much past DIY Co2 and Im lost. __________________ I am Species 5618: Coffee Based life form Join us in the MFT.net chatroom!

03-07-2005, 08:01 PM	#37
NoDeltaH2O Super Fish Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Posts: 1,868	Both of your comments made sense. I am thinking maybe I should add RO water some of the time because I DO NOT want the KH to steadily increase over time. I don't exactly know what osmoregularity problem are, but it sounds worse than a rectal exam, and to be avoided if at all possible. I think the original KH level of 13.5 was pretty good as with it i had no exhibitionists or flashers. I really think that the gravel I used and the rocks I put in when I set the tank up had a large contribution to raising the KH level because this tank has always had a KH of 13.5 whereas my other tanks all have a KH of 10. But I do agree that always adding water and not taking any of the "old" water out probably will increase KH over the long haul and I need to keep an eye on this. I have learned so much here! Keep the knowledge comin'. __________________ Love, Peace, & Soul,... Delta________I am the Chosen One_I bring balance to the forum Hillstream Loach Planted River Tank ~4.5wpg ODNO DIY CO2 ________"A Proud Member of the Anti-Ballistic Comment Treaty" PS: my school web account got closed down after graduation, so none of my pictures in old threads are accessible until I move them all elsewhere, sorry.

03-07-2005, 08:12 PM	#38
Lotus Moderator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Southern California Posts: 14,778	It sounds to me like you have a little too much CO2 in there if you have a KH of 14 and a pH of 7.0. Of course, CO2 doesn't displace oxygen, so as long as you have enough water movement, your fish should be OK. I would turn down the CO2 a little. If your KH is rising, then you will be adding more and more CO2 to keep the pH down, and consequently pushing the safe limits of CO2, IMO. Generally, and increase in KH will increase the pH, although I'm not sure if there's a direct chemical relationship that's measurable. However, you won't get a level of 18ppm CO2 in the tank without adding it artificially. __________________ Lotus and Ecotank's tanks "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

03-08-2005, 02:51 PM	#40
Salty Fishes Little Fish Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 240	Why would adding RO water lower the kH of the aquarium? I was under the impression that carbonates would not evaporate with the water. Therefore, as the water evaporated, the kH would essentially rise. I believe that no solutes evaporate with water. By the way, I think that your tank is beautiful, dr drake, and the idea of it seems very cool. Its seems like your fish and plants are happy. Itll be interesting to see how it works out.