Hillstream Loach River Tank - Page 3 - MyFishTank.Net Freshwater Saltwater Aquarium Fish Forum

wayne · 02-24-2005, 05:06 AM

I don't know if this should go on the 'carbon' thread or not, but basically there are good reasons not to rely on the nitrate test kit as your sole measure of water quality. Certainly if I go without water changes and rely on skimming and biofiltration accumulation largely of phenols will cause water yellowing. To shift some accumulated wastes water changes and carbon use are required.... Starting with Eric Bornemans nice articles, and take your reading from there...
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/eb/index.htm
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-13/eb/index.htm

NoDeltaH2O · 02-24-2005, 11:55 AM

Teach me that I may know Wayne. Seriously, that's why I am here.

Other pollutants? How can I test for them?

The 2nd link is apparently dead.

In the 1st link Wayne provided, I read:
"... the fact that virtually every inhabitant in our aquaria is producing variable amounts of novel, uncharacterized, and well-known bioactive secondary metabolites of mostly unknown effects, and may be reactive with a host of other largely unknown organic and inorganic compounds present in our tanks, makes our water a complex soup with no two tanks being alike - or predictable. The take-home message of this myth is that it is practically not possible to say "my water tests fine." All we can do is recognize certain facts, and act accordingly. In my opinion and experience, the most pragmatic solution is dilution and absorption by the use of water changes, protein skimming, and activated carbon. I fully realize the many issues that might stem from this simple advice, especially in light of the materials provided by authors as mentioned above. However, if nothing else, it seems to potentially simplify the many potential chemical interactions that might be occurring."

"novel, uncharacterized, and well-known bioactive secondary metabolites of mostly unknown effects" doesn't sound like conclusive results from objective research, but more speculation. But in times like this I tend to yield to one who is speaking from within their area of expertise. I don't claim to know it all, but I do know that my water isn't yellow at all, and the only fish that I haven't been able to keep and grow in the tank is platies, but for them I think the low temp may have been more to blame than the unexplained, largely unknown metabolites. I promise that I will look into this further, and hell, if it will make you all (as well as my dearly beloved fish and shrimp) happy, I'd be willing to put a new filter cartridhe in WITH carbon !

And about the hillstream loaches being mixed with more aggressive loaches and having trouble feeding, I have realized this and use a turkey baster to target feed them about 3 or 4 times a week, although they did live purely off of the fat of the land for over a month with no ill effects.

I think a combination of several things may make what I am doing possible (at least for the past year):
Densely planted fast growing plants
Evaporation of about 1/2 gallon per day gets topped off
High Carbonate Hardness keeps buffering capacity up

I used to keep evaporation minimal by covering with plexiglass, but evaporation is a good thing as I am continuously adding new tap water with trace elements. The overdriven bulbs produce heat, and my house is dry to start with. Also with a KH of 13.5, the pH is buffered strongly. I will keep a closer eye on the KH level.

There are others that are doing what I am, and I've never heard of crashing occurring, not to say it hasn't. Maybe those people never post their failures... I'll keep you up to date from time to time on how my NWC (no water change) tank is doing. And I am very interested in reading more concrete results of experimentation and analysis.

Everybody does different things, and everybody has different results, and most things work when we put our hearts into it, and only by radical thought are great discoveries and breakthroughs made possible. The earth is flat. Gravity is the occult, man will never fly, etc, etc, etc....

Peace, Love, & Soul,
D

MrParker · 02-24-2005, 01:24 PM

That was good....very good Doctor Drake

TaffyFish · 02-24-2005, 01:45 PM

The end of ALL water changes is complete crap though isn't it? You're adding half a gallon a day for evaporation, that's 3.5 gallons a week or a 17.5% water change on your 20g tank. Who are you kidding?

NoDeltaH2O · 02-24-2005, 01:49 PM

1/2 gallon goes in with a pitcher, using my left hand. Water changes require 5-gallon buckets.

Some more pics:

wayne · 02-25-2005, 03:58 AM

OK, I thought the second link worked, but it clearly doesn't. The articles of course refer to reefs rather than planted tanks, which are very dissimilar in some ways but I thought you might get the feeling there was a general point here.
People tend to assume, and this is a vey common trait, that the only measure of pollutants are those measured by the classic nitrogen cycle. But this is not the case. The first step of the nitrogen cycle for many waste is not the metabolisation of ammonia to nitrite , but the destruction of organic waste to ionic ammonia/ammonium and for some organics, and it's more than a trivial percentage, this is not the case. Thus these things accumulate, along with phosphates, metal ions and others.
Now your plant growth will consume and bind many of these things, but not all, and I don't believe it's all predictable. You are feeding your tank, are you convinced/certain that everything you put in is utilised or removed in some way, and that all wastes are removed, not just the ones you measure.
You could measure DOC electronically, or get a redox meter. You're right , your high kH is useful in keeping pH relatively stable as it will overpower the acidification effect of accumulating organics

As a final note I find it interesting that you're keeping fish from an enviroment of continual water changes (high oxygen stream/rapid flow river) to one of no water changes. When I was interested in L number plecs which are somewhat similar I became very familiar with water changes

NoDeltaH2O · 02-28-2005, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne

Now your plant growth will consume and bind many of these things, but not all, and I don't believe it's all predictable. You are feeding your tank, are you convinced/certain that everything you put in is utilised or removed in some way, and that all wastes are removed, not just the ones you measure.

I am definitely not certain that everything I am putting if is utilized. Good Point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne

You could measure DOC electronically, or get a redox meter. You're right , your high kH is useful in keeping pH relatively stable as it will overpower the acidification effect of accumulating organics

I just tested my KH today for the first time in a couple months, and it is now 15, it was 13.5 for about a year. I added some calciferous rocks when I set the tank up and apparently some of the calcium is leaching into the water. Considering I'm not changing water much I guess that is more good than bad. Not sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne

As a final note I find it interesting that you're keeping fish from an enviroment of continual water changes (high oxygen stream/rapid flow river) to one of no water changes. When I was interested in L number plecs which are somewhat similar I became very familiar with water changes

I have very rapid flow as the powerhead forces a current the length of the entire tank and the tankwater is turned over about once every 3 minutes. I believe the oxygen content is very high in the tank as all the plants pearl quite a bit. I remember reading a thread somewhere (not here) months ago and there was a lively debate about whether putting more CO2 into the water pushed Oxygen out. The consensus was that the 2 gases exist independent of the level of the other, even to the saturation point of one or both. If this is true, then the loaches could have a very high O2 environment, if it is wrong, the little guys are miserable... I do not expressly test for oxygen levels with a kit.

MrParker · 02-28-2005, 05:40 PM

why is there so much contraversy about your tank. and not just your tank, i see lots of people arguing about somone elses tank too. this site isnt to argue about fish, its about sharing our tanks and getting help when we need it yes? So dr drake you have a nice tank it looks great, and if there are no substantial amounts of casualties among plants or fish, then obviously its working fine. Great job!

NoDeltaH2O · 03-01-2005, 12:22 AM

Thanks MrParker. It's good to have a friend. I think it all comes down to the fact that I do NOT want to change water, and haven't for quite some time. I can understand that that concept is a bit scary for some people, as water changes are just accepted as part of fish keeping. Someone very early in this thread directed me to check out Diane Walstad's site. She has a very nice forum at:
http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x
She seems to also have a method for not doing water changes for long periods of time, although her method is one with soil substrate, rooted plants, slow growth, low light, and no added CO2. She calls this "El Natural", and people have nice results, and a lot less hassle I think that the "high-tech" aquarists have. I might actually give it a try on a 10gallon I have in the den which has a synodontis angelicus and a gourami. My rivertank is an experiment, just that. Having said that, it is the best looking tank in my living room (I have 3 there), and people who are NOT fish people stare at it and talk about it with admiration and wonder. I guess it will take my Hillstream loaches (which like high oxygen, fast moving, clean water) to successfully breed before folks can relax and say to themselves, "well done, good and faithful servant".

Peace, Love, & Soul
D

PS: Diane thinks I don't need to change my water either:
http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.c...4/m/3561049511

she said,
"I took a quick look at one picture of your tank. It looks great! I' sure that the fish are happy living in this "aquatic rainforest".

With heavy plant growth like this, you may not need to change water at all. Remember that plants passively take up elements like chloride from the water, even though plants don't need chloride. Thus, the fear hobbyists have that salts will inevitably build up if they don't do frequent water changes may not apply in your case. However, keep those plants pruned so that you get continuos growth and removal of salts.

Let plant growth and fish apetite guide your water changes. If plants stop growing or fish stop eating, then consider doing a water change.

There's no need to do robotic water changes.

Diana Walstad"

TaffyFish · 03-07-2005, 04:00 AM

Quote:

1/2 gallon goes in with a pitcher, using my left hand. Water changes require 5-gallon buckets.

LOL! You mean if I use my left hand it's not really a water change? You're still deceiving yourself, the tank with "NO water changes" has a 17.5% water change done every week.

Quote:

I have very rapid flow as the powerhead forces a current the length of the entire tank and the tankwater is turned over about once every 3 minutes.

You can't possibly believe this replicates "an environment of continual water changes", in wayne's context? Do you have an example of such circulation in a river system?

I am sorry that you view such questioning as unfriendly, I do however like to burst bubbles! I admire much of what you're trying to achieve, but keep it real eh? :-)

View Poll Results: Is it worth avoiding water changes to have so many plants?
Yes, I hate water changes and love plants.	30	34.88%
Yes, more plants make the fish calmer and provide hiding places for spawning.	49	56.98%
Yeah, but plants need the CO2 jugs changed, so you trade one hassle for another.	15	17.44%
No, I like naked tanks so I can see the fish.	4	4.65%
No, I love changing water and worrying about nitrates.	7	8.14%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

02-24-2005, 11:55 AM	#22 (permalink)
NoDeltaH2O Super Fish Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Posts: 1,868	Teach me that I may know Wayne. Seriously, that's why I am here. Other pollutants? How can I test for them? The 2nd link is apparently dead. In the 1st link Wayne provided, I read: "... the fact that virtually every inhabitant in our aquaria is producing variable amounts of novel, uncharacterized, and well-known bioactive secondary metabolites of mostly unknown effects, and may be reactive with a host of other largely unknown organic and inorganic compounds present in our tanks, makes our water a complex soup with no two tanks being alike - or predictable. The take-home message of this myth is that it is practically not possible to say "my water tests fine." All we can do is recognize certain facts, and act accordingly. In my opinion and experience, the most pragmatic solution is dilution and absorption by the use of water changes, protein skimming, and activated carbon. I fully realize the many issues that might stem from this simple advice, especially in light of the materials provided by authors as mentioned above. However, if nothing else, it seems to potentially simplify the many potential chemical interactions that might be occurring." "novel, uncharacterized, and well-known bioactive secondary metabolites of mostly unknown effects" doesn't sound like conclusive results from objective research, but more speculation. But in times like this I tend to yield to one who is speaking from within their area of expertise. I don't claim to know it all, but I do know that my water isn't yellow at all, and the only fish that I haven't been able to keep and grow in the tank is platies, but for them I think the low temp may have been more to blame than the unexplained, largely unknown metabolites. I promise that I will look into this further, and hell, if it will make you all (as well as my dearly beloved fish and shrimp) happy, I'd be willing to put a new filter cartridhe in WITH carbon ! And about the hillstream loaches being mixed with more aggressive loaches and having trouble feeding, I have realized this and use a turkey baster to target feed them about 3 or 4 times a week, although they did live purely off of the fat of the land for over a month with no ill effects. I think a combination of several things may make what I am doing possible (at least for the past year): Densely planted fast growing plants Evaporation of about 1/2 gallon per day gets topped off High Carbonate Hardness keeps buffering capacity up I used to keep evaporation minimal by covering with plexiglass, but evaporation is a good thing as I am continuously adding new tap water with trace elements. The overdriven bulbs produce heat, and my house is dry to start with. Also with a KH of 13.5, the pH is buffered strongly. I will keep a closer eye on the KH level. There are others that are doing what I am, and I've never heard of crashing occurring, not to say it hasn't. Maybe those people never post their failures... I'll keep you up to date from time to time on how my NWC (no water change) tank is doing. And I am very interested in reading more concrete results of experimentation and analysis. Everybody does different things, and everybody has different results, and most things work when we put our hearts into it, and only by radical thought are great discoveries and breakthroughs made possible. The earth is flat. Gravity is the occult, man will never fly, etc, etc, etc.... Peace, Love, & Soul, D __________________ Love, Peace, & Soul,... Delta________I am the Chosen One_I bring balance to the forum Hillstream Loach Planted River Tank ~4.5wpg ODNO DIY CO2 ________"A Proud Member of the Anti-Ballistic Comment Treaty" PS: my school web account got closed down after graduation, so none of my pictures in old threads are accessible until I move them all elsewhere, sorry. Last edited by NoDeltaH2O; 02-24-2005 at 01:21 PM..

02-24-2005, 01:24 PM	#23 (permalink)
MrParker Medium Fish Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: So Cal Posts: 419	That was good....very good Doctor Drake __________________ Current - 45 Gallon :: 3 otos :: 1 Chinese Algae eater :: 16 neon tetras :: 1M & 3F Fancy Guppies :: 5 Ghost Shrimp :: 2x32WATT T8 6500K :: DIY CO2 :: Substrate From SandDunes :: Wisteria :: 4 Melon Sword :: Microsword 3 10 Gallon Tanks Empty 2004 - 10 Gallon ::9guppy fry(4 weeks old)::5Ghost shrimp, 1 amano::2 SAE::3 otos::4 neon tetras:: 2 Redwag Platies :: DIY CO2::My own Substrate:: ::anacharis::Wisteria::Ovalis::Lilaeopsis brasiliensis(Microsword)::Limnophila indica(ambulia)::

02-24-2005, 01:45 PM	#24 (permalink)
TaffyFish Super Fish Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,467	The end of ALL water changes is complete crap though isn't it? You're adding half a gallon a day for evaporation, that's 3.5 gallons a week or a 17.5% water change on your 20g tank. Who are you kidding? __________________ ......who stole my banner? Last edited by TaffyFish; 02-24-2005 at 01:48 PM..

02-24-2005, 01:49 PM	#25 (permalink)
NoDeltaH2O Super Fish Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Posts: 1,868	1/2 gallon goes in with a pitcher, using my left hand. Water changes require 5-gallon buckets. Some more pics: __________________ Love, Peace, & Soul,... Delta________I am the Chosen One_I bring balance to the forum Hillstream Loach Planted River Tank ~4.5wpg ODNO DIY CO2 ________"A Proud Member of the Anti-Ballistic Comment Treaty" PS: my school web account got closed down after graduation, so none of my pictures in old threads are accessible until I move them all elsewhere, sorry. Last edited by NoDeltaH2O; 02-26-2005 at 01:26 AM.. Reason: added a picture

02-24-2005, 05:06 AM	#21 (permalink)
wayne Super Fish Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,077	I don't know if this should go on the 'carbon' thread or not, but basically there are good reasons not to rely on the nitrate test kit as your sole measure of water quality. Certainly if I go without water changes and rely on skimming and biofiltration accumulation largely of phenols will cause water yellowing. To shift some accumulated wastes water changes and carbon use are required.... Starting with Eric Bornemans nice articles, and take your reading from there... http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/eb/index.htm http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-13/eb/index.htm

02-25-2005, 03:58 AM	#26 (permalink)
wayne Super Fish Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 4,077	OK, I thought the second link worked, but it clearly doesn't. The articles of course refer to reefs rather than planted tanks, which are very dissimilar in some ways but I thought you might get the feeling there was a general point here. People tend to assume, and this is a vey common trait, that the only measure of pollutants are those measured by the classic nitrogen cycle. But this is not the case. The first step of the nitrogen cycle for many waste is not the metabolisation of ammonia to nitrite , but the destruction of organic waste to ionic ammonia/ammonium and for some organics, and it's more than a trivial percentage, this is not the case. Thus these things accumulate, along with phosphates, metal ions and others. Now your plant growth will consume and bind many of these things, but not all, and I don't believe it's all predictable. You are feeding your tank, are you convinced/certain that everything you put in is utilised or removed in some way, and that all wastes are removed, not just the ones you measure. You could measure DOC electronically, or get a redox meter. You're right , your high kH is useful in keeping pH relatively stable as it will overpower the acidification effect of accumulating organics As a final note I find it interesting that you're keeping fish from an enviroment of continual water changes (high oxygen stream/rapid flow river) to one of no water changes. When I was interested in L number plecs which are somewhat similar I became very familiar with water changes

02-28-2005, 05:40 PM	#28 (permalink)
MrParker Medium Fish Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: So Cal Posts: 419	why is there so much contraversy about your tank. and not just your tank, i see lots of people arguing about somone elses tank too. this site isnt to argue about fish, its about sharing our tanks and getting help when we need it yes? So dr drake you have a nice tank it looks great, and if there are no substantial amounts of casualties among plants or fish, then obviously its working fine. Great job! __________________ Current - 45 Gallon :: 3 otos :: 1 Chinese Algae eater :: 16 neon tetras :: 1M & 3F Fancy Guppies :: 5 Ghost Shrimp :: 2x32WATT T8 6500K :: DIY CO2 :: Substrate From SandDunes :: Wisteria :: 4 Melon Sword :: Microsword 3 10 Gallon Tanks Empty 2004 - 10 Gallon ::9guppy fry(4 weeks old)::5Ghost shrimp, 1 amano::2 SAE::3 otos::4 neon tetras:: 2 Redwag Platies :: DIY CO2::My own Substrate:: ::anacharis::Wisteria::Ovalis::Lilaeopsis brasiliensis(Microsword)::Limnophila indica(ambulia)::

03-01-2005, 12:22 AM	#29 (permalink)
NoDeltaH2O Super Fish Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Posts: 1,868	Thanks MrParker. It's good to have a friend. I think it all comes down to the fact that I do NOT want to change water, and haven't for quite some time. I can understand that that concept is a bit scary for some people, as water changes are just accepted as part of fish keeping. Someone very early in this thread directed me to check out Diane Walstad's site. She has a very nice forum at: http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x She seems to also have a method for not doing water changes for long periods of time, although her method is one with soil substrate, rooted plants, slow growth, low light, and no added CO2. She calls this "El Natural", and people have nice results, and a lot less hassle I think that the "high-tech" aquarists have. I might actually give it a try on a 10gallon I have in the den which has a synodontis angelicus and a gourami. My rivertank is an experiment, just that. Having said that, it is the best looking tank in my living room (I have 3 there), and people who are NOT fish people stare at it and talk about it with admiration and wonder. I guess it will take my Hillstream loaches (which like high oxygen, fast moving, clean water) to successfully breed before folks can relax and say to themselves, "well done, good and faithful servant". Peace, Love, & Soul D PS: Diane thinks I don't need to change my water either: http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.c...4/m/3561049511 she said, "I took a quick look at one picture of your tank. It looks great! I' sure that the fish are happy living in this "aquatic rainforest". With heavy plant growth like this, you may not need to change water at all. Remember that plants passively take up elements like chloride from the water, even though plants don't need chloride. Thus, the fear hobbyists have that salts will inevitably build up if they don't do frequent water changes may not apply in your case. However, keep those plants pruned so that you get continuos growth and removal of salts. Let plant growth and fish apetite guide your water changes. If plants stop growing or fish stop eating, then consider doing a water change. There's no need to do robotic water changes. Diana Walstad" __________________ Love, Peace, & Soul,... Delta________I am the Chosen One_I bring balance to the forum Hillstream Loach Planted River Tank ~4.5wpg ODNO DIY CO2 ________"A Proud Member of the Anti-Ballistic Comment Treaty" PS: my school web account got closed down after graduation, so none of my pictures in old threads are accessible until I move them all elsewhere, sorry.