Odd behavior and then death? This is becoming a big problem...

[angel51431]

Rainbowfish people, help me out! I've never seen anything like this.

let me apologize for length, but I have to describe it fully...

Okay, I mentioned in a thread that i lost two boesemanis the other day. It keeps happening. First off, I have an intensionally overpopulated tank, I know. ammonia = 0, nitrites = 0, I just checked. I have a good amount of water circulation to provide oxygenation and to prevent pockets of dead water (air stone, powerhead, fluval canister filter). I just did a 5 gal water change yesterday, i do this regularly every one to two weeks.

My problem is rather odd. I have lost four rainbows in five days, two boesemanis, a turquoise and an autralian. They all go through rather odd behavior before dying. Let me try to describe this as best as i can.

Late at night when i go to bed and turn the room lights off, a fish starts to flip out. This is with the tank lights off for two, three hours already. But yeah, as soon as room lights go off the fish starts to thrash about, hit itself against tank walls, swim all over the place really fast and try to toss itself out of the water. This makes so much noise that it usually startles me, the splashing and hitting on the walls of the tank. Then afterwards, said fish floats around as if paralyzed, fins sticking out, all rigid, breathing fast. Sometimes they get back... motor function, sometimes I find this same fish dead in the morning.

I have lost four fish in this manner already. Sometimes they thrash around a bit like that during the day as if something spooked them but then they go back to normal as if nothing happened. The fish do not show any signs of stress or weakness before this occurs.

I was gonna blame it on lack of oxygen, overpopulated tank and all. And yet I do not see any signs of stress, no red gills, no other health problems. Parameters checked out fine. And it seems as if this happens due to stimulus - as soon as the room goes completely dark... they freak out and drop dead?

I have not added any new fish to the tank for probably a year now, none of these fish are young. They're all used to the environment, and some of those fish are close to three years old. No new changes have taken place, except for the addition of two mystery snails.

Has anyone ever seen anything like this? Any help would be appreciated, I'm afraid of losing any more fish that I'm highly attached to...

 

[Seleya]

What is the nitrate reading?

 

[angel51431]

just checked. No detectable nitrates.

If it makes a difference, I've been adding AlgaeFix to try and control my BBA. Although it says plant/fish safe on the bottle.

 

[Dr.Gonzo]

maybe they are stressed out with all of their roommates.

 

[Seleya]

Is this tank planted? How many plants and what general type? With the stocking level and water change schedule, you should have a notable nitrate reading.

When were the snails introduced? Are they both still alive?

 

[cchase85]

I had a swordtail do the same thing. He would go totally nuts with his fins jacked up, then just go limp and seem to float around like he was paralyzed, then maybe go spastic again... he died within 2 days, and there was nothing I could do about it.

Didn't lose any other fish, either.

I realize this doesn't help, but it means you aren't the only one to see something like this.

 

[angel51431]

The tank has all live plants - mostly amazon swords, dwarf sags, and wendtiis. Pretty heavily planted, in flourite. Lots of black beard algae that I'm trying to battle.

I'd figure that I should have nitrates too, but my kit doesn't show any. It is by Hagen, about two years old.

If anything i try not to overfeed, my feeding schedule is about every other day. And like I said, a lot of flow and movement throughout the tank to prevent buildup.

and snails - i introduced them about two weeks ago. They haven't been super-active at all, though both are still alive and i can see feeding marks on the algae on the walls.

Edit....
I'm at a loss of what to do so I did the only thing left to do when at a loss... a large water change. Changed ~15-ish gallons (50ish percent), vacuumed the gravel and cleaned out the filter and powerhead.

watched yet another fish spaz out earlier... though he seems to have recovered so far.

 

[Seleya]

It sounds more environmental than disease related tho the snails' addition may not be solely coincidental. (for anyone's interest, if nothing else, dead snails smell awful, live ones aren't typically very smelly) As you know, any addition (plant, animal or water) carries with it the possibility of the introduction of pathogens or infestations.

I think you need to closely examine the fishes' environment immediately before and after the lights go out. By any chance, is anything on the tank on the same circuit as the room lights? Any possibilities of stray electricity or tank equipment being affected by the switch being turned off? Have you tried keeping another light on in the room to see if they react with light from a desk lamp, for example, still on instead of total darkness? If the lights are freestanding instead of hard wired, what happens if you turn out the room lights with a different switch? (switch on the light instead of on the wall)

I would try to get a water sample tested elsewhere just to confirm the accuracy of your kit. It may not help but you just never know and it's a good thing to know asap anyways if that is the case.

 

[Fishywishy]

I'm not sure I understand, your test kit by Hagen is 2 years old? if so go buy a new one and test your water then. I wasn't sure if you were referring to your test kit or possibly a filter being 2 years old.

you can try the bowheads.org (purely rainbowfish discussions), but I think you're going to find your trouble in the water, not a disease or something specific with rainbows.

 

[angel51431]

I really don't think it is disease related either. I'm sure its environmental - something went wrong, something crashed. Hence I just went and did a 50% water change and major cleanup. I've had no other recent deaths for... a while. I can't remember the last fish that died before this little episode, so its more than several months to a year at least.

It has only affected my rainbowfish so far, hence I'm emphasizing them. The rest of the fish in the tank - gourami, tetras, cories - seem fine and dandy. Besides, I'm thinking that it might be a reaction that only rainbowfish get (the whole spazzing out and paralysis, or what seems like it anyway). So I mentioned 'rainbowfish people' with hopes that if its something specific, they might know. Then again, cchase85 described similar symptoms in a swordtail.

Seleya - its an old apartment building so I have little knowledge of what wiring is connected in the walls. but I've had this tank running on the same outlets for almost three years now. I haven't thought of stray electricity. But I have seen them react to something like... dim lights in the room (desklamp across the room) and some fish would spaz out when i come close to or pass by the tank. Sometimes they do it randomly during the day and then come back to normal after floating for a little while. It is just the most prominent and violent at night.

and I mean I've seen fish get spooked and swim scross the tank spastically before. They're timid creatures, i know. But now when a fish spazzes out its literally thrashing itself all over the tank and trying to jump out, hitting the tank cover. ...and then losing motor function and then dying.

Meh, I guess I'll grab some water and bring it over to the lfs to see what kind of testing they provide. In any case, I don't feel that its nitrates killing them.

 

[Lotus]

It might be the AlgaeFix. It sometimes causes problems. I believe it has copper in it, although I don't know if rainbows are especially sensitive to that, or perhaps something else in the product.

I'd add some carbon to the filter and see if it helps, but copper is only removed by water changes or copper remover, so some extra water changes might be in order.

You might also want to run some tests on your dechlorinated tapwater, just in case the composition has changed from what you've come to expect.

 

[Fishckabibble]

whats the ph of your water? they are pretty sensetive to ph swings and dont really like hard water, they are more soft-medium ph fish, if you have a high ph that may be whats causing it....

 

[angel51431]

Yeah I think I'm gonna stop the Algae Fix. Wasn't helping anyway. Heh I love how on the bottle it says "harmful if absorbed through skin." Meh :\

Fishkabibble - I have very soft water and my pH is on the acidic side. My pH test kit is ancient so i'll get a read at my lfs tomorrow.

Meh, these aren't young fish, aren't new in the tank and are all suddenly dropping, that's what worries me.

I *just* watched another one go. Was able to watch the whole thing. I was sitting at my computer on the other side of the room - noticed that a boesemani started swimming erratically, then calmed down for a second... then started thrashing about really fast for a second or two, went limp and stopped breathing. For a few minutes she was floating about with her anal fin spasming slightly, but she seems gone otherwise. Oh, all all of the lights - tank lights, room lights - are on. Nothing spooked her this time. Ugh, its as if they have heart attacks - they are fine one moment, spazzing the next, and then they're gone in an instant :\

copper and Rainbowfish - i googled it. Seems they are supposed to have good tolerance! :\

"Our preliminary genetic studies suggest over the last 40 years or so, the selection pressure of pollution has driven the rainbowfish population towards higher copper tolerance," said researcher Ms Sharyn Gale." - News in Science - Rainbowfish pass the toxic test - 08/10/2002 - I know they're talking about a specific population of autralian rainbows, but still...

 

[usacutie81]

Wow, this is totally crazy. I have no idea what's wrong, I have never heard of anything like this before. Oh and btw, I'm pretty sure that BBA devours all nitrates in the tank, that could be why you don't have any. I'm having the same issue. Good luck with your fish, I hope you figure it out!

 

[angel51431]

usacutie81, it is totally insane. I've never heard of this either, before witnessing it. Its becoming totally depressing, as soon as I think 'what next?' another one dies. With no prior symptons, ugh!

I think I'm gonna... add a bit of salt to the water? To releive stress a bit? Maybe as an electrolyte it'll help (screw if the snails don't like it). Or should i not?

 

[Fuzz16]

this is what tended to happen to the gbr's i went through or even my fish that i had had for awhile. i personally think it is due to shock. theres something that changed enough to spark the fishes body into eptileptic shock, i think. anyways after they start seizuring theres really no fish i know that lived for more than a few days after.

im sorry for all your losses...but you may not find out what it is thats killing the fish, but hopefully it doesnt start affecting the other fish.

 

[Big Vine]

This might sound far off, but just a shot in the dark here...do you happen to have any younger brothers and/or sisters or anyone else who might be messing around with the tank and scaring the crap out of the fish and traumatizing them when you're not there?

Maybe you're in college, or maybe you're middle-aged and your younger siblings are all in their forties and fifties. Or maybe you don't even have siblings. Beats me.

But based on the discussion thus far, I'm at a total loss, and so this is all I could think of at the moment.

Or could it maybe be a pet that is tormenting them---at night, perhaps?

Big Vine

 

[angel51431]

Heh i wish I had other people to blame! I do go to college but now I live at home with my mum and stepdad - my mum observes the fish once in a while and my stepdad doesn't know it exists. No one else tampers with it. The cats don't care for it (luckily my older cat grew out his fish hunting/scaring days long ago).

Even if something was scaring them, it wouldn't really explain the fish suddenly dropping dead. Fish are often spooked many times a day because they're such sensitive creatures. And the last one I witnessed seemed to have no stimulus at all - all lights were on, no one was near the tank - and she flipped out and in seconds she was floating dead. And yet another one has gone through several flipping out sessions and seems to fully recover each time (and even eats right after - I tried offering food just to see what the response would be, and everyone is ravenous as usual).

Meh, the water can't be that bad. My gold tetras are playing courtship games... they always seem to be in a good mood after a water change.

I'm thinking maybe it really is the algae fix, or some chemical leeching into the water (god knows from where?) I try to always have clean hands when I do anything in the tank.

 

[Fishywishy]

rainbowfish are not timid, I have a 75 gal with lots of rainbows, I can hand feed them, my son can race them (5 foot long tank and he trys to see which fish will be the first to meet him at the other side of the tank, screaming and yelling the whole time), I can turn lights on and off in the middle of the night, nothing bothers the rainbowfish They are recommended for beginners because they are so hardy.

with nitrate poisoning you're not going to see red gills, clamped fins or heavy breathing, you are going to see the fish with heightened colors, erect fins, glazed eyes, and unaware of their surroundings etc..

for an active fish like the rainbowfish, I'd say that "unaware of their surroundings" would be the suddenly freaking out over nothing slamming into walls, jumping out of the tank .........

if you are killing algae with chemical something is making it grow fast enough that it doesn't appear to be doing anything.....chemicals (especially copper tend to kill algae pretty fast)

I'm not saying it's nitrates but with the amount of fish per gal, the outbreak of algae and the symptoms.....I have a little more trouble just shrugging it off to other things

 

[angel51431]

Heh I know rainbows are not timid for a fish. I meant fish in general.

Is that what nitrate poisoning is like? I didn't know. You don't hear much about it. Like I said, tomorrow I'm gonna take some water to the lfs and see if i can get a test there. Nothing I can do for nitrate except for water changes anyway, right?

Hmm, reading the bottle of AlgaeFix.. it doesn't even mention copper anywhere. Active ingredient: poly(oxyethylene(dimethyliminio)ethylene (dimethyliminio)ethylene dichloride. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also says for dosage, fourteen drops per ten gallons ever three days until algae is under control. Anyway, it seems to have slowed the growth a bit, but didn't kill anything off. I still have plenty of regular green algae on the walls of the tank, even.

Hmm - throwing another idea out there - could it be a water hardness thing? My water is super soft. Like undetectable KH and GH levels. I didn't bother running a test because they tell me nothing. Could this have crashed though? That sort of thing would take the pH down with it, right? Meh I always tell myself to throw in some seashells into the filter to buffer a tiny bit, never get around to it.