Brackish Cycling

[madhippoz]

Ok, have a few questions here.

I have a new 77gal tank that is the proposed new home for my 3 Colombians. I started off doing the fishless cycle. I goofed at the start and ended up adding WAY to much ammonia, so much so that it took 2 50% water changes to get it down even to like 3ppm. At the week and a half point, talking with Adamj, I realized I wasn't actually making my tank Brackish (the old "Aquarium Salt" in the milk carton doesn't make water Brackish? goof). Anyway, I added some salt, enough to get my salinity up to 1.012ppt. A few days I added 5 Knight Gobies to help with the cycle. During this time my Ammonia dropped down to approx. 1ppm. I don't know if it was the salt, or the Gobies that prompted this drop. However, another week and a half later, it is still sitting there at 1ppm. I did a 20% water change on Friday, which seemed to hardly lower my Ammonia at all. As of this morning, still at 1ppm for Ammonia, and 0 Nitrites. I've got red algae spots growing on the glass, the Gobies seem perfectly fine. My question is can the Marine salt perhaps be stalling my cycle? Any suggestions on what might be happening, or am I just being impatient at this point?

Oh, newsflash via MSN. Adamj found some info stating that bacteria growth is decidely slower in salt water. The reproductive rate for bacteria in fresh water is about every 8 hours, in salt water, its more like every 24 hours. However, as catfishmike has said before(lazy fishkeeper syndrome), the toxins are less toxic in salt water than they are in fresh, so that's why its not as hard on my Gobies. We're going to try 15-20% water changes every other day to get our Salinity down and see if that kicks our cycles into gear. Adamj's is stuck on the Nitrites the same way mine is stuck on Ammonia. We'll keep yah posted.

[adamj]

i've only done one water change. Ill be doing on today, i tested nitrites yesterday, they went down a pinch. but nothing too noticible.so far fish are fine. eating VERY well

[madhippoz]

I've done 2 water changes since, missed my last one as I was away this past weekend. Ammonia dropped hardly a tick both times. However, this weekend over the course of 3 days it dropped a noticable amount. Hanging around .5ppm. However, I'm noticing a large amount of reddish brown algae on my signiture rock in the middle of my aquarium. Previously it was only on my glass. Still not even a drop of Nitrites either.

What's everyone's opinion on that reddish brown algae. I was just leaving it, waiting until the tank cycled before scrapping it off. Would it hurt the cycle at all to scrap that algae off my glass and now that big rock?

[adamj]

welp, heres my update...
i tested water today... ammonia and nitrite were high and the fish werent eating as much as normal. I thought this very strange, considering the stress their under i had to move them to a new tank, at least until the tank is cycled. i did about a 45% change, and added some water from another established tank. they seem to be fine and have their new territories staked out in a the new tank their in. the bacteria growth isnt going anywhere, and i thought its possible theres different types of nintrifying bacteria for brackish/saltwater tanks... could my theory be correct? If so, would adding established marine water to this tank help? There isnt as much bacteria in the tank as i originaly though to begin with, a simple stir up of the substrate makes the ammonia jump many ppm. not the nitrites however. It appears the growth of current bacteria is severely retarded. I still can remove the salt eventualy and have it cycle as fresh water. However, considering the nature of these fish, its important for them to have brackish water. Any ideas or suggestions beyond that of periodic water changes? Or any opinions on adding water from an established marine tank?

thanks

[adamj]

i didnt realize it until now but even if we add salt after a fresh cycle, i believe it will still stunt the growth of the bacteria cultures, they willlive for the time being but a population of anything that doesnt reproduce eventualy dies out. My theory is that its possible there is a salt tolerant marine bacteria that we could possibly use. If we can get a sample of an established marine tanks water, we could add it to our brackish systems and they'll grow... we'll see...

[adamj]

ok, well i just got off the phone with a brackish expert. My hypothesis was wrong, still cool to know however> As i now understand it, there are slight differences in the bacteria between marine and fresh tanks, but not that much of a difference. I have undergravel plates in my tank, i was planning on getting uptake tubes later on, well, yesterday i had really stird the substrate up and tested water after i did that, the ammonia and nitrites were through the roof, sooo i have a dead water in the tank. simply all the waste seeps to the bottom, and rests underneath the ugf plate. So if i increase filtration and get that water moving underneath the filter plate, it should continute its cycle pattern. the guy i spoke to thought my salinity might be too high as well, but he said that salt didnt interfier with bacterial growth, thats something still undecided with me however, i've heard otherwise. I think now my salinity is lower and ill see how that works but i wont remove it to the point of zero salt. Hippoz - do you have ugf plates in your tank at all? i didnt think you did, in that case i was suggested to increase filtration and possibly have two hob filters and only change one at a time to keep a healthy large bacteria culture going. Considering the size of your tank, you might have some dead water as well. Considering we have the same problem, it just might work... Ill be getting my uptake tubes asap, and ill let you know how it works out... laterz

[madhippoz]

No UGF plates here, but my tank is very deep, 77gal, and even though my Eheim Pro II 2026 kicks ass, even it has trouble getting any strong current to the very bottom of the tank. I'm certain I have deadspots around the tank. And I have a very deep gravel bed, so there are possibilities for waste and/or Ammonia to be settling down there. I'll stir up my gravel and see if I get the same effect, an increase of Ammonia. I'm also going to start trying to assemble an Under Gravel Jet to help with lower level tank circulation. It's described here in this article:

http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php

As you mentioned before though Adamj because my tank is quite large, that is probably just compounding the problems I'm having with my cycle.

[adamj]

let me know how your stir up test goes...

[toodles]

I figured you would be more likely to see this here......

The debate about nitrifying bacteria rages on and on.....some people say that freshwater and marine bacteria are completely different and there are no overlaping bacteria. Some claim that they are one and the same species, able to switch from fresh to brackish to salt. Others say that the majority of the bacteria found, are either fresh or marine or brackish, but that there is a minority of bacteria that can withstand all the ranges. Me, well, I'm not a biologist, and I'm certainly not a micro-biologist, but the last option seems to make the most sense. (at least to me)
Regardless of what is actually true, if you keep switching back and forth from brackish to fresh, whatever bacteria are growing are going to get, at least shocked if not outright killed. Best to keep your levels steady and give it time.

If it was me, I would lose the UG....they trap too much detrius and you will have higher nitrates using one. Not only that, but it can be a pain to constantly clean the gravel so it doesn't clog, plus you have to occasionally put airline tubing down the uplift tubes to try and siphon out the gunk underneath there.
If you want good water movement why not simply buy a powerhead or two and aim them at the substrate?

[adamj]

i have some spare powerheads, and i plan on jetting them into the ugf plates backwards with sponges on em....